Whirlpooling - How And When?

[PistolPatch]

Next one is in 3 weeks theoreticallly but every time we need to do something, Lloydie keeps threatening to spew! I told him not to drink last night but does he listen???

WTF is a delayed hangover? He is looking bad!!!

 

[PistolPatch]

C = 200ml before getting clear run-off.

 

[PistolPatch]

5.5lts trub on C.

Yield on C = 24.5 + 19 lts

 

[sama]

So what's the real issue of getting a bit of break material and hops into the chilled wort?
I can't really notice a difference in my brewed beers, it all settles out in fermentation.
I'm sure perfect whirlpooling is worthwhile, but I sometimes think it's one of the lesser variables in brewing. How wrong am I?

I totally agree.

 

[O'Henry]

Too much hot break can impact yeast growth and result in under attenuated beer or higher fusel alcohols being produced. But 10-20% into the fermenter can be beneficial to yeast health. It is a fine line. Also, the relationship between hot and cold break is proportional, so if you have more HB, then you will have less CB and visa versa.

Edit: grammaz

 

[seemax]

I use a large spoon to whirlpool for 30secs a few minutes after flameout, at which point there is little or no convection. Wait 5mins then drain from the tap into my no-chill cube. Almost every time there lies a lovely cone of trub and other crap. The last drops of wort a very clear.

Once it's cooled to ambient there is a good layer of (i assume) cold break in the cube. I pour slowly into the fermentor and usually let some of the break material flow in... and waste 0.5L or so of the wort.

Then again I've fermented directly in the cube, cold break and all....it settles out anyway and doesn't seem to produce any obvious undesired flavours.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

So what's the real issue of getting a bit of break material and hops into the chilled wort?
I can't really notice a difference in my brewed beers, it all settles out in fermentation.

I made a an ESB that scored 41 in a comp in which I remember getting a whole heap of break material and hops into the cube, just to make up space in the cube.

I'm sure perfect whirlpooling is worthwhile, but I sometimes think it's one of the lesser variables in brewing. How wrong am I?

Its incremental improvements - sure, a bit of break into your fermenter isn't the worst thing you can do. But there is a lot of evidence that all other things being equal, cleaner cast wort makes for better tasting more stable beer...

If you are on the hunt for ways to improve your beer.. then keeping trub out of the fermenter is one step to take. It wont turn your crappy beer into good beer, it wont turn your good beer into great beer.. but it very well could help you to more consistently turn out beers with clear, well defined flavour profiles.

Its just one more nugget to toss into the basket of stuff that all adds up to brewing good beer every time you fire up the kettle.
'
Great beers come from inspiration and passion and a healthy dose of good luck - but great beer won't get a chance to be great unless it's good first; and consistently good beer comes from dotting your Is & crossing your Ts.

 

[kevin_smevin]

I haven't noticed any bad effects of having cold break in the fermenter. Anyone using a plate chiller will have cold break in their fermenter. Of course in most modern commercial breweries, they also have conical fermenters to they can just open a tap and drain the trub soon after transfer. I know a couple of people that use plate chillers and leave their wort in a fermenter in a fridge overnight to let the cold break settle, and then rack into another fementer the following day and pitch yeast and swear its the way to go.

 

[PistolPatch]

Dunno who did all those consecutive posts under my name on Sunday but thanks for keeping the thread on track you guys above. We'll be doing another three double-batches in 2-3 weeks so might try the same schedule again - in daylight and with less fuel on board .

Has anyone noticed it being harder to get a good cone with double batches versus single batches? Just thinking that this might be part of the reason for not getting brilliant results on Sunday. I have whirlpooled in the past and got a great cone but can't remember if this was with single or double batches.

Thanks,
Pat

 

[Fatgodzilla]

I have whirlpooled in the past and got a great cone but can't remember if this was with single or double batches.
Pat

You are not supposed to smoke the hops Pat.

 

[Phoney]

So ive just read half a dozen threads on whirlpooling, and no-one seems to mention the effects of letting your wort sit hot at >90C on hop additions. TB earlier in this thread advised to let your wort sit for 30 mins after WP'ing!! But what is this going to do to those 5min, 10min, 15min etc hop additions? Im thinking it'll turn them into flavour additions and any aroma will be long gone by then...

I have just started using a gravity fed plate chiller, so chilling the wort and then whirlpooling is out of the question for me, and im worried that letting my wort sit there for any longer than 10mins after whirlpooling is going to be detrimental to those lovely aromas and giving me additional - unwanted - IBU's.... Particularly if you are no-chilling it would be even worse...

Are you supposed to add those late kettle and flameout additions after whirlpooling while you are waiting for your cone to form?

Am I on to something or completely missing something here?

Cheers

 

[suorama]

I think lot of your question phoneyhuh earlier. And I think I get some answer to me by thinking it. If wort is with whirpool all the time, you can just stop heating and whirpool system at same time. So you need only wait that 10min and start take out wort. Same time because wort moving all the time, it not burn to bottom or immersion heaters that easy. And hops also moving and release their own materials better.

You can even start cooling if you use your pump to cause whirpool, same time at you shut heating off...

 

[felten]

I don't think the time is an problem, think about commercial brewers, they use the same type of hopping schedule's as homebrewers, and take infinitely longer to whirpool and chill their wort without any issues.

 

[suorama]

I don't think the time is an problem, think about commercial brewers, they use the same type of hopping schedule's as homebrewers, and take infinitely longer to whirpool and chill their wort without any issues.

Sorry my ironic sound, but where you think I get my solution . Well, ok I'm not know anything about commercial brewing. But that might be one solution.

I explain more. If you take wort from bottom valve and pump it back to kettle. And angle of that returning wort is good, wort start running with circle. Ok.
So, you can use whirpool with whole boiling time and you can start circulate cooling water immediately when heat is off. Ofcourse that means you need recycle wort via chiller whole boiling time. If you not use valves. Do I need tell more?

 

[peaky]

I chill with a copper coil immersion chiller, remove the chiller then get as good a whirlpool going as I can with a big spoon, cover the kettle with al foil and leave it to rest for 20 minutes. Then run the wort off.
Not sure if this is the 'correct' way to do it but my wort always runs clear right from the beginning of the run off. Works perfect for me!

 

[kevin_smevin]

If your using a plate chiller, the idea of the whirlpool is to seperate hot break and hops etc from your wort so they dont clog up your plate chiller. I think if your start whirlpooling while your still boiling it wont work very well - the movement of the wort due to boiling will disrupt the whirlpool action and thus not a good whirlpool. So, its best to turn flame off, whirlpool 10 minutes and then rest for 10 minutes to let the trub settles into a cone. Commercial breweries add aroma additions into the whirlpool, so i guess you could do this just before finishing the whirlpool (first ten minutes) and then it is only in for 10 minutes prior to being cooled. The other way to get late hopped character while using a plate chiller is to use a hopback.

 

[Bill F]

I've only started whirlpooling fairly recently but I'm definately a convert.

I whirlpool after cooling with an immersion chiller which I remove (but I like the idea of getting a quicker chill by getting it moving while the coil is in and will probably try that though i'm a little concerned about increased O2 exposure before its cooled - but maybe its not an issue if as claimed, commercial brewers are happy to whirlpool vigorously at flame out or before).

I stir with a large stainless spatula (that has been in the kettle since flame out) and only for as long as it takes to get a good symetrical rotation going - in my kettle it takes another 10-15 min for it to come to rest so you can think about running off.

This might be stating the obvious but I don't imagine whirlpooling will work if your kettle outlet is in the centre of the vessel - I assume it needs to be on the side so that outletting isn't going to erode the trub and deliver it to the fermenter/hopback/plate chiller before anything else.

 

[SG9090]

I whirlpool after the wort is chilled and then let it sit for 45min, The wort run off is very very clear.


In regards to the effects of whirlpooling hot it will add extra IBU's to the recipe.There is a very good pod cast on the brewing network http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/668 Jamil is attempting to clone Epic APA. The head brewer of Epic gives the recipe 45 IBUs in Jamil's clone which they brew, taste and claim as cloned, their IBU was 23 they go futher on saying that all the zero min and whirlpool additions add extra IBU's. How you caculate the IBU from whirlpooling accurately not sure.


After leasoning to this podcast im going to give this APA a go, sound awesome.

 

[Acasta]

I asked a similar question not too long ago and was shown this great link here: http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Whirlpooling

 

[rangaz]

I've tried three different methods.
take off the gas, WP with a spoon and leave ten mins then transfer hot to secondary vessel for chilling. got a really clear wort but of course the cold break still ended up in the fermenter.

next i tried chilling first then whirlpooling with a spoon. For some reason the WP doesnt work as well for me when the wort is cold.

now I've got a plate chiller, I WP hot, leave for ten minutes then start chilling into the fermenter. This gives me very clear wort before it gets to the chiller but I still end up with cold break in the fermenter, which doesn't bother me. I figure its ok to leave it hot for 15mins as the big breweries do so for much longer while they're whirlpooling.