Which wheat yeast, and fermentation temp for big banana flavour/aroma

[Weizguy]

3068 @ 17 deg for a big banana flavour. I've done numerous at this temp and, yep, bang on the mark. This came from Jamil, I think it is out of Brewing Classic styles or off his podcast. P.S @ 17 deg it still blows the gladwrap off the fermentor! :icon_drool2:

It's also from Zymurgy.

*Edit: Also see the thread which says that Dextrose encourages banana ester formation.

 

[carniebrew]

I used Yeastcalc to calculate my pitching rate for 3068 on my 17C fermented Bavarian wheat beers...but what I didn't realise initially is that because I'd selected "Ale" as the fermentation type, Yeastcalc was already applying the 75% ratio to their "Yeast Cells Needed" number. So I was pitching about 80% of that number, which means I was pitching at around 60% of the 'normal' rate of cells needed. As I said earlier though, the results were spectacular, my dunkel especially was coming out smelling and tasting almost exactly like a Weihenstephan commercial dunkel.

Mind you, I don't smell banana in either my Bavarian wheats, nor the commercial versions like Weihenstephan...maybe I just can't pick it up? Is there a particular commercial hefe/dunkel that people reckon smells heaps like banana? If so I'll go grab one to see if I can detect it.

 

[surly]

Funny to see this thread now. I was chatting with a commercial brewer recently about hefe esters, pitch rates etc.

He mentioned that if you mash in at 44, you are promoting some of the precursors for the clove/banana esters. So, following from some of the other advice on this thread, a bit of an under-pitch of 3068, mash in @ 44 and set ferment temp accordingly and you will probably end up with:

 

[surly]

I have only just finished my first Hefe today (as in, should be carbed). Due to taste it in a few hours.
I used 3068 and the beer was tasting delicious out of the hydrometer tube. Heaps of banana. Feremented @19-20, pitched the whole, fresh smackpack into about 21 litres of 1.044 wort.

 

[carniebrew]

Interesting...even if your 3068 was made only 2 weeks ago, that's a massive underpitch. Yeastcalc suggests 172 billion cells for 21 litres of 1.044 ale, and you've given it probably a lot less than half that.

What was your FG out of interest? And is the banana in both the flavour and aroma?

 

[surly]

Hey Carnie, I followed the pitching rate on the pack which suggested it was fine. I am yet to look into calculating number of cells, but it is one of the many things on my list. From what I remember, the yest was about 2 weeks old. Very fresh.

Struggling to find where I recorded FG, but seem to recall it finished around the 1.010 mark. I would not describe the beer as having massive banana flavours or odour, but there is definitely some there (poured a pot about an hour ago). It is still a bit under-carbed unfortunately, so hard to get a great idea and tastes a little sweet because of this. I thought I had left the gas on while I was on holiday, but guess not.

 

[hoppy2B]

I just transferred my 100% wheat beer from the Keggle where it has been the last couple of weeks. Planning to let it sit in the ferment vessel for a couple of days to settle a little before bottling.
This one was fermented with Munich yeast. Definitely has some banana flavour in it, and some honey from the malt. I make my own malt. The main flavour I'm getting at the moment though is apple because it was fermented quite high around the 30 degree mark for the first couple of days. I probably over pitched a little as well.
I think it will clean up ok with a couple of weeks in the bottle. The banana is a little subdued by the bitterness, which isn't excessive, but does need time to mellow.
I'd be interested to see how the Munich stacks up against 3068 in a split batch taste test.

 

[verysupple]

Anyone tried starting 3068 off at 17~18 for clove and then bumping it up to 21-ish at the end to bring up the banana? I'm curious whether this would work to fully develop both.

I'm not sure this would work. Most of the ester production occurs early on in the ferment - from memory of reading the Yeast book it's mostly in the growth phase. So bumping the temp up later on probably won't have much of an affect on banana.

Owen Lingley from Wyeast says that the pitch rate affects what esters are created (for 3068 3 - 6 M cells/mL gives banana ester) and the temp affects how much esters you get. To clarify, the higher temp gives you more banana ester which "over powers" the clove phenols. A lower temp gives less banana esters and allows percetion of the clove phenols.

So, combining these two ideas, if you want lots of banana from Wyeast 3068 you'd want to pitch a 3 - 6 M cells/mL at a relatively high temp. Not pitch cold and then let it rise.

Here's the link to the interview with Owen, it's quite informative, The bit about temp and flavour is about 16:00.

 

[carniebrew]

I'm not sure this would work. Most of the ester production occurs early on in the ferment - from memory of reading the Yeast book it's mostly in the growth phase. So bumping the temp up later on probably won't have much of an affect on banana.

Owen Lingley from Wyeast says that the pitch rate affects what esters are created (for 3068 3 - 6 M cells/mL gives banana ester) and the temp affects how much esters you get. To clarify, the higher temp gives you more banana ester which "over powers" the clove phenols. A lower temp gives less banana esters and allows percetion of the clove phenols.

So, combining these two ideas, if you want lots of banana from Wyeast 3068 you'd want to pitch a 3 - 6 M cells/mL at a relatively high temp. Not pitch cold and then let it rise.

Here's the link to the interview with Owen, it's quite informative, The bit about temp and flavour is about 16:00.

Even quoting 3-6M cells/mL is curious, given (if I'm getting my zeroes right) that equates to anywhere between 60 and 120 billion cells in a 20 litre batch. Big variance, and a long way off the 167 billion suggested by Yeastcalc (for a 1.045 brew). Just goes to show how little yeast you can pitch on a beer and still get an effective ferment I guess. Using 60 bil in 20 litres of 1.045 hefe is supposedly a 30% pitch rate...

 

[hoppy2B]

Pitching low also means the yeast goes through more generations of active fermentation, which counteracts the lack of banana esters reported by people who have stored the yeast for a period of time between batches.
What I did is I only used 1 or 2 grams out of the Munich yeast packet and pitched that into a 1 and 1/2 litre starter, then I pitched the whole starter into the 30 litre brew towards the end of the starter's active fermentation. That means the yeast goes through more multiplications than it would if I had pitched the whole dry Munich yeast packet into my starter.

 

[carniebrew]

<snip>

Here's the link to the interview with Owen, it's quite informative, The bit about temp and flavour is about 16:00.

Great video link btw, nothing like hearing it from a true expert. Interesting comment at 18m mark: (for a 5 gal batch fermented at 65F, i.e. ~19 litres @ 18C) "Any ale under 1060, you don't need to do a starter as long as you have a fresh pack".

 

[verysupple]

Great video link btw, nothing like hearing it from a true expert. Interesting comment at 18m mark: (for a 5 gal batch fermented at 65F, i.e. ~19 litres @ 18C) "Any ale under 1060, you don't need to do a starter as long as you have a fresh pack".

Yeah, how good would it be if we lived on the same continent as the manufacturer. Unfortuneately we don't seem to get fresh packs . I'm pretty sure you're from Melbourne too. I've never gotten a pack of Wyeast less than about 2 months old ,so I'd be interested to hear if you have a source for fresher packs.

Even quoting 3-6M cells/mL is curious, given (if I'm getting my zeroes right) that equates to anywhere between 60 and 120 billion cells in a 20 litre batch. Big variance, and a long way off the 167 billion suggested by Yeastcalc (for a 1.045 brew). Just goes to show how little yeast you can pitch on a beer and still get an effective ferment I guess. Using 60 bil in 20 litres of 1.045 hefe is supposedly a 30% pitch rate...

Yeah, that's a fairly low pitching rate but apparently that's quite normal for this style of beer (although 3 M / mL seems really quite low...but I'm no expert). It's good to remember that different styles need different pitching rates just like they need different yeast strains etc. I'm pretty sure the much quoted 0.75 M / mL / P (the rate Mr. Malty and Yeastcalc use for ales) is an average rate for clean fermented American ales. Estery English ales and weissbiers and such apparently don't require quite as high pitching rates. Another good read is this article from BYO by John Palmer. http://byo.com/stories/item/1717-yeast-pitching-rates-advance-homebrewing . It sums up and covers the major beer categories quite succinctly. But as always, it's just one man's (and the literature he's read and agreed with) opinion.

PS. I love your member status. Do I make your thirsty baby? Do I?

 

[mr_wibble]

IMHO RelaxedBrewer is on the money with '3068.

I'm not a fan of WB06 for German-style wheat beer, to my palette it produces citrus flavours.
Which is great if that's what you want, but *I* want banana+clove+bubblegum - which is what I taste in Wiehenstephan, Paulaner, Ayinger(sp?), Kloster Andechs, (etc.) wheat beers.

You get a lot of banana with Wyeast 3068, a truckload, so I would ferment it on the low-side of 20 if you can.
Unless you don't believe there's such a thing a too-much banana I fermented this (the first time) at winter room temperature, which was around 18-22C (night & day).
I was not happy with the result because I perceived the flavour as overly-estery, and on the banana side rather than the clove.

Most things I've read recommend about 18C for '3068. This yeast goes off like a rocket.

Just to update this:

I was in Germany in Feb for work, and managed a weekend visit to the Ayinger Brewery. They make my favourite wheat beer, and it's this beer I aspire to when brewing hefeweizens. The tour was in German, and despite years of lessons mein Deutsch ist ganz scheiße. But the Brewmaster definitely said their (open ferment) wheat beers were fermented at 20°C. So my next batch of wheat beer will be fermented at 20.

I notice Wyeast do list an Ayinger yeast (not currently in production runs), but I reckon 3068 would be close enough.

Also, it's been discussed in other posts here, but Wyeast say you need to under-pitch 3068 for balancing towards banana, and over-pitch for clove.

 

[verysupple]

Just to update this:

I was in Germany in Feb for work, and managed a weekend visit to the Ayinger Brewery. They make my favourite wheat beer, and it's this beer I aspire to when brewing hefeweizens. The tour was in German, and despite years of lessons mein Deutsch ist ganz scheiße. But the Brewmaster definitely said their (open ferment) wheat beers were fermented at 20°C. So my next batch of wheat beer will be fermented at 20.

I notice Wyeast do list an Ayinger yeast (not currently in production runs), but I reckon 3068 would be close enough.

Also, it's been discussed in other posts here, but Wyeast say you need to under-pitch 3068 for balancing towards banana, and over-pitch for clove.

Nice one. I'd love to do a tour like that.

The fact that they ferment at 20 C is not surprising. In "Brewing With Wheat" most of the weissbier brewers interviewed ferment around that temp. Just remember that fermentor geometry plays a big role in the level of pretty much all flavour compounds, especially esters. Their open fermentors would most likely still be a fair bit deeper than the average homebrew FV, meaning that the hydrostatic pressure is greater which generally supresses ester formation. Anyhoos, the point is that what works on the commercial scale doesn't give the same result on a homebrew scale. That's generally why homebrewers report success at lower fermentation temps.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, 20 C may be perfect for your system and what you're aiming for. Just try a few different temps and see what works for you.

 

[Parks]

On my setup 3068 @ 17 degrees is a perfect balance of clove and banana. I have done it at 21-22 before and it was a banana thick shake.

The 40-45 degree rest promotes clove, not banana and I don't always do it and am yet to see a difference when I do.

Don't under pitch by most home brewer standards - under pitch by the proper pitching calculator standards which is still likely to be much higher pitching rate than most people use.

 

[TimT]

1. Read this thread.
2. Take note of everything they tell you not to do.
3. Do it.

The consensus seems to be, if you want banana ester, pitch yeast while the wort is at a relatively high temp, about 22 degrees. The first day of fermentation is apparently the important time for ester formation. I'll be trying this myself sometime!

 

[Parks]

1. Read this thread.
2. Take note of everything they tell you not to do.
3. Do it.

The consensus seems to be, if you want banana ester, pitch yeast while the wort is at a relatively high temp, about 22 degrees. The first day of fermentation is apparently the important time for ester formation. I'll be trying this myself sometime!

That thread you are also using a yeast which isn't supposed to give banana. This thread details the right yeasts to use if you want banana.

 

[Midnight Brew]

Had a wheat beer back in February that I fermented at 22C with 3068 banana was there but also hints of bubble gum and I suspect it got up to 24C some point after about 48 hours. I didnt under pitch and I did step mash so could explain the bubble gum being a combo of those and temperature. I loved it and it wasnt too in your face banana, which really surprised me although everyone has different taste buds.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, 20 C may be perfect for your system and what you're aiming for. Just try a few different temps and see what works for you.

Trial and error is the key here. As verysupple says, try and drink the results.

 

[mr_wibble]

Nice one. I'd love to do a tour like that.

The fact that they ferment at 20 C is not surprising. In "Brewing With Wheat" most of the weissbier brewers interviewed ferment around that temp. Just remember that fermentor geometry plays a big role in the level of pretty much all flavour compounds, especially esters. Their open fermentors would most likely still be a fair bit deeper than the average homebrew FV, meaning that the hydrostatic pressure is greater which generally supresses ester formation. Anyhoos, the point is that what works on the commercial scale doesn't give the same result on a homebrew scale. That's generally why homebrewers report success at lower fermentation temps.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, 20 C may be perfect for your system and what you're aiming for. Just try a few different temps and see what works for you.

Yeah, the fermenters were a good 10 metres tall (not including the bottom cone).

I've made a few wheat beers at 18C - I want more ester. Maybe I should pitch warm, and aim for 19C
(i probably should check the calibration of the stc1000 too)

-kt

 

[carniebrew]

<snip>

I've made a few wheat beers at 18C - I want more ester. Maybe I should pitch warm, and aim for 19C
(i probably should check the calibration of the stc1000 too)

-kt

Are you under-pitching though? Remember the Wyeast guy says pitch rate determines what you'll get, ferment temp determines how much of it you get. I pitch at around 85% of what Yeastcalc tells me I need for an ale, and I pitch at around 22C, then set my STC-1000 for 17C for the rest of the fermentation. The result for me, every time I've done this, is exactly like my favourite commercial hefeweizens, so I'm sticking with it.

Personally, I've under pitched and fermented over 20 (once as high as 24), and over pitched and fermented both low and high, and I don't like the results as much as under pitching and fermenting at 17C.