Which Malts

[AndrewQLD]

Jayse, you have explained yourself very well, and while I don't think you are an elitist at all, I do think you have missed the point on what these brewers are trying to do.

Correct me if I am wrong, but they seem to be taking the Charlie Papazian approach to brewing, creating brews that, while they are based on malt, are flavored with adjuncts to produce and highlight particular flavor profiles that they are after ie. chocolate,toffee ect. these flavors and aromas are meant to be in the fore and dominate the beer so that it becomes distinctly different from the usual run of the mill brew.

Having said that, I think I tend to lean more to your side of the fence, as I think a good beer should be made with minimul ingredients,based on pale malt and tweaked with specialty grains to give subtle flavor variations.

hope I haven't offended anyone.

Regards
Andrew

 

[jayse]

I do see what you mean Andrew.
I can't really answer with out offending the 'master' but i don't think the approach you refer to fits what i was 'agaisnt'. that 'pap' approach fits will inside what iam talking about as a good approach to brewing...ie good brewing practices with sound conventional brewing.
after all that approach can easily be used by a allgrain brewer and is quite often done.
If the 'masters' brewing was like that i would not get myself so arked up over what he is doing all the time.

That make any sense?

Jayse

 

[AndrewQLD]

Yeah it makes sense Jayse,

But since I don't know the person you are refering to and don't know how they brew I won't comment any more on something I don't know the full facts about, I probably should not have commented in the first place.

Regards
Andrew

 

[jayse]

Too be honest i have been very hard on the fellow brewer lately.
My posts where not meant to be directly at any certain brewer but just give out some ideas on the way 'i think' some brewers should be leaning more towards

anyway what were we talking about? thats right choc flavours from grain.
sorry to all for the sermon and thread hijack

Cheers Jayse

 

[GMK]

I am not actually offended - but.....

I can see what Jayse says. I felt that he was belittling my approach to brewing beer. I put alot of thought into my recipees and what i use - look at my ginger beer recipe that is now being made accross Australia.
I have posted recipes here also. I list them as a starting point - i dont want them to have the rigidity of follwing it to the letter.

Jayse states a very good point that at the end of the day you brew for yourself. That is what i do - i also like to be a bit different/memorable.
I like to formulate my own styles - like the Merry Beery, the Hoppy FES etc.

As for competitiveness - i have had 12 top 3 placings in the ACT State Championships in different categories and entered 8 beers into the Nationals with the following results:
2 x 2nd, 2 x 3rd, 2 x 6th, 2 x 9th - always finished top 10.

For me the culmination was 1st place in the kit beer category at ACT State Championships and 3rd place in the Nationals in the same category of the same year.

They have since removed the kit beer category from the nationals and state championships.

Therefore, i have brewed the best kit beer in the ACT and the third best kit beer in the country in 2001.

So i feel that i must be doing something right.
I accept all feedback and i know it is not personal...

The Grand Master came about as a joke - as it seems that i end up with brewing Padewins/Apprentices where ever i go - and one of the apprentices started calling me Grand Master Kenny - he found the site before me - put me onto it so i registered as GMK.
Currently i have introduced 3 people in Canberra into home brewing, 3 people in adelaide plus my dad and brother.

I am getting into All Grain because i have a more control over the beer making process and therefore more flexibility and creativity into the final product.
It should also be cheaper...but will have to wait and see.

This site is a good Forum to get the whole spectrum/range of brewing and ideas.

Looking forward to another brew day at the Skunk Fart Brewery or the Barossa Brewhaus with Jayse.

 

[Snow]

Jayse,

you are not "elitist", you are "purist" - which is cool by me. Personally, I share your philosophy and brew in that manner, albeit now as a partial masher. However, as GMK indicates, he has the awards that give his methodologies legitimacy.

Cheers - Snow.

 

[jayse]

All very well put GMK.
I know i have undoubtly used and belittled your brewing for my own little sermons.
No buts about it.
I guess what makes it worse is although you know iam not just a idiot behind a PC. Most others won't see that. Iam not trying to tell everyone i think your are not a good brewer because thats not what i really meant to do.
I was speaking as a brew nazi through and through.
The reason i picked on you was only really because you use darker extract sometimes as a base.
Now although this can make just as good beer as other extract. In my own little alien world i'd like to see everyone use more grains and hops and only use light unhopped extracts.
This is only in the perfect world and i would never expect everyone to do this as these can make good beer.

Jayse (brewing nazi)

 

[user 384]

I'm going to agree with Jayse. One of the keys to good brewing is mastering the basics before moving onto more complex recipes, methods etc. I didn't always follow this approach and have made my fair share of fruit beer/chocolate beer/christmas beer etc. What I discovered was that although these beers stood out as diffferent and were clearly not mega-swill type beers, they were definitely not top quality. So I went back to basics and started with good quality base malt complemented by a small % of specialty grains, noble hops, and an appropriate liquid yeast. The results were far superior and by reducing the variables I've been able to see how small changes can make a big difference. I've got a long way to go, but lucky enough to taste beer made by other brewers who follow the same principles (including the Pale Ales of Jayse), I'm absolutely convinced it's the right approach.

This simple approach of mastering the basics is what I think BBB is trying to do with his understanding of chocolate malt, black malt and roast barley. He's trying to understand which of these will work best for his stout. He's identified a flavour in stouts he has tasted and wants to find the grain that will get him close to this. I think this level of passion comes out strongest in all-grainers, and Jayse is one of the most passionate all grainers I've met. He clearly is trying to underatnd what makes a beer taste a particular way. I reckon he gives GMK such a hard time as he can see that Ken is a keen brewer with loads of enthusiasm and Jayse just wants him to see the potential of keeping it simple.

So I say keep up the enthusiasm GMK, keep up the passion Jayse and keep searching BBB. With enthusiasm, passion and a thirst for knowledge, I'm sure we can all begin to master this brewing caper then we can all be Grand Masters, not just Ken .

Cheers
GMMAH

 

[AndrewQLD]

Top post MAH,

Just what I was trying to say, but I became side tracked.
I to am an all grain brewer and the simplistic approach has always worked well for me and then I tweak from there.

Andrew

 

[GMK]

GMMAH

Excellently, succicently and most eloquently put. I agree.

It is because we all share a passion for brewing great beers and for continual improvement that this discussion/debate comes about. I am glad others share the passion and the debate is Robust...it can only help the forum.

I think that it's from this position is why it doesn't get derogatory or defamatory - which is very good and not needed.

It is fantastic that in the world of brewing there is room for all. I agree that i should have used the word purest and not elitist...but i don't feel that i need the "awards" to prove my methodologies (but will still look good in the brew room when it is done) - it was used as a reference for competiveness.

I feel that different brewers use different ingredients and different methodologies - and they all have a part/legitimacy and can stand on their own feet in the world of brewing.

Brewing originated in Egypt when the Pharohs were around and helped build the great pyramids - look where we have got to now.

I will keep up the enthusiasm......

 

[dicko]

Well said MAH,
Exactly MY sentiments,
Cheers

 

[Jazman]

As a new all grainer im trying to do the kiss pricinple untill im more cofindent on do more things like later step mashes and maybe a dectotion .working out basic recipes then as i learn more about malt types wil experiment more but that the fun with learning and brewing and as i have never doen an extract brew as i gathed to do all that work i might as well mash and after my first partial i wont go back