Where Have I Gone Wrong?

[MitchDudarko]

Hey all,
My first AG batch was kegged the other day, Dr. Smurto's Golden Ale. After carbing it up, It pours well enough, nice head and all, but its cloudy as all heck (read: Orange Juice), and the flavour is so sweet. First thing that jumped into my mind was Hoegaarden.
A few reasons this could have happened that have popped into my mind are:
1. I didn't have a boil that 'rolled' enough
2. Hopped incorrectly. As I halved the grain bill to do in two smaller batches, I halved the hop schedule. In hindsight, was probably wrong as I can remember reading somewhere that it doesn't necessarily work that way.
3. I pitched S-04. After a week of inactivity and steady SG readings I pitched the only other yeast I had at the time. T-58.
4. I fermented it a little warm. Was moving house, didn't have my fermenting fridge blah blah blah. Haha, so the ferment temp sat at around 24 degrees IIRC.

Anyone else have any ideas?
Cheers
Mitch

 

[davewaldo]

Hi Mitch, a bit more info would be good

When you say you did two smaller batches what do you mean? Did you brew just a half batch? Or did you do two half batches? Two separate boils with half the hops?

Were your hop AA% the same as the recipe?

What was your final gravity?

Dave

 

[MitchDudarko]

I did two half batches, no chilled, and then added them together in the fermenter. I did two seperate boils with half the hops.Eg. 20g Amarillo @ 60mins for a 20L batch, so I added 10g @ 60mins for a 10L batch. I believe the hops were .1AA% under what the recipe stated. FG was steady at 1.016 for four days.

 

[davewaldo]

I'm really no expert but I'll see if I can help

So I assume when you say half the hops you mean half the hops per boil. So really it sounds like you used the correct amount of hops over the total batch. If this is correct it doesn't sound like you have a problem with hopping rates.

If your boil was rolling at all it should have easily been enough to get the required bitterness from the hops.

Now 1.016 should be fine for the golden ale. It's sweeter than it should be, mine usually finishes at 1.009. But I don't really know what T-58 yeast is like, also you may have mashed higher temp than you should have. Do you have a good thermometer that is well calibrated? Also do you have anyway of checking the PH of your mash?

Assuming you didn't get an infection in the first week of no activity it sounds like you might have a few possible problems.

If you mash was not very efficient you may still have starches in the beer making it cloudy. This may be due to temp or ph (I use five star 5.2 in mash so I don't need to think about PH, see sponsors). These two issues could create the cloudiness and the sweetness.

One other thing I find is that if your beer hasn't cleared enough yet and still has a lot of yeast in suspension it can taste quite sweet.

Hope this helps track things down for you.

 

[davewaldo]

One other thing about fermentation temp... I don't see how your warm ferment would effect sweetness or cloudiness but it would give you some esters and spiciness from that yeast. Possibly these esters might remind you of Hoegaarden....

 

[Bribie G]

AHA :angry:
T-58. I've currently have a Belgian Blonde in the keg, lovely clear beer and beautiful colour but it has such a twang that you could swear it was a kit + bits. It was fermented under 20 but that peppery spicy twang really hi-jacks the whole brew. It tasted great young, and I mean after a week in the keg, but now after around 3 weeks it's almost mouth puckering. Next time for a golden ale I'd maybe go for a liquid yeast, maybe the Wyeast 1056 equivalent of US-05.

Is the haze a persistent haze hot or cold, or just a chill haze that disappears when it warms up?

 

[Effect]

T-58 is a belgian ale yeast. That is why you are picking up flavours that remind you of hoegaarden. It also is low attenuative and isn't highly flocculative, which is why I am not surprised that it tastes sweet and it is cloudy.


edit: beaten by a mere minute!

 

[bum]

I'd have thought he was clearly talking about appearance when he mentions the hoegaarden comparison.

What is your method, Mitch? Are you recirculating in the mash?

 

[Screwtop]

T-58. I've currently have a Belgian Blonde in the keg, lovely clear beer and beautiful colour but it has such a twang that you could swear it was a kit + bits.

Kinda like a Belgian Ale Maybe :lol:

Screwy

 

[MitchDudarko]

Thanks for the replies guys! I think I should have mentioned that i'm a BIABer.
To answer a few questions:
*I've not even thought of testing the PH of the water I used. I'm unsure as to what the PH of the water should be when brewing, let alone what it should be after.
*Mash temps were something I kept an eye on very closely. IIRC, I only lost 1deg over the whole hour, so when I pulled the bag out, the wort was at 65deg.
*After the mash, I pulled the bag and dunk sparged in 1L of water, squeezing and adding back to the wort before it reached it's boil.
*The cloudiness is persistant. Cold, warm... It's appearance doesn't change. The Hoegaarden reference was both in appearance and flavour.
I hope this little bit of extra info helps narrow down the cause of the sweetness/haze.
I had always said, 'It's my first ever AG batch, and as long as it turns out drinkable, I'm happy'. I could always just pass it off as a Hoegaarden clone, or some kind of Belgian

Mitch

 

[bum]

The Hoegaarden reference was both in appearance and flavour.

I stand corrected. Apologies to all concerned. Sorry.

Best of luck getting to the bottom of it (the problem I mean, sure you're having no problem finding the bottom of the glass!).

 

[manticle]

Thanks for the replies guys! I think I should have mentioned that i'm a BIABer.
To answer a few questions:
*I've not even thought of testing the PH of the water I used. I'm unsure as to what the PH of the water should be when brewing, let alone what it should be after.
*Mash temps were something I kept an eye on very closely. IIRC, I only lost 1deg over the whole hour, so when I pulled the bag out, the wort was at 65deg.
*After the mash, I pulled the bag and dunk sparged in 1L of water, squeezing and adding back to the wort before it reached it's boil.
*The cloudiness is persistant. Cold, warm... It's appearance doesn't change. The Hoegaarden reference was both in appearance and flavour.
I hope this little bit of extra info helps narrow down the cause of the sweetness/haze.
I had always said, 'It's my first ever AG batch, and as long as it turns out drinkable, I'm happy'. I could always just pass it off as a Hoegaarden clone, or some kind of Belgian

Mitch

Mitch:

If you start to fiddle with water chemistry (which I don't yet) it is an important distinction to understand that it is not the water pH that is ultimately important but the pH of the mash. Obviously pH of the water will effect the final mash pH but you measure and adjust one rather than the other.

Some highly hopped/late hopped home brews of my experience (drinking, not brewing) have been cloudy which I believe relates to the hops. Cloudiness could be related to a number of things though.

I could always just pass it off as a Hoegaarden clone, or some kind of Belgian

You are joking about this bit aren't you?

 

[MitchDudarko]

You are joking about this bit aren't you?

Absolutely. It's hard to convey tone over the net. I'm going to finish this batch, if someone else likes it they can help.

 

[manticle]

Sounds like it's probably a combination of some of the things you outlined - high ferment temp, different, specifically phenolic yeast, high-ish FG.

 

[Screwtop]

*After the mash, I pulled the bag and dunk sparged in 1L of water, squeezing and adding back to the wort before it reached it's boil.

Don't like the sound of this practice Mitch!

Maybe TB or another BIABer may be able to add comment here.

Screwy

 

[saccarin63]

you pulled the bag out ,dunked sparged,squeezed.pleaseexplain <_<

 

[sav]

QUOTE (MitchDudarko @ Jan 17 2010, 08:45 PM) *After the mash, I pulled the bag and dunk sparged in 1L of water, squeezing and adding back to the wort before it reached it's boil.

Mmmmmmm Tannins,what temp did you do that, just before the boil and its a bit grainy.

 

[RdeVjun]

If its your first few BIABs, I wouldn't fartarse around with dunk sparging. Accept it may be a shade light on for efficiency, concentrate on getting the technique right and the downstream processes sorted before tweaking your actual BIAB- that is in itself a very simple process but in the beginning a sparge just isn't needed, there are more important factors to consider.
If you're insistent on sparging though, I'd be wondering why so little? And what temperature? That's unlikely to be an effective mashout sparge even if it was boiling. As a BIABer/ dunk sparger (for a particular reason) with no clarity or under-attenuation problems to speak of though, I'd be surprised if that sparge was the source of cloudiness or attenuation issues, there's a few other things to straighten out like fermentation temperature, yeast strain etc, while mash pH should be easily sorted with some 5.2. So Mitch, I'd focus on those factors while sticking to the stock process before mucking with sparging, later on you might get some benefit but I wouldn't just at the moment. :icon_cheers:

Oh, I wouldn't be concerned if you get some flak for squeezing, if that's how I read it. So long as you're not squeezing the daylight out of it? A gentle squeeze is sufficient, and only if you're in a hurry, otherwise let our ubiquitous friend gravity do all the work.

Or using COLD water for that sparge? I'd be using >80C water for that, you want the mashout to be around 75C.

I'm surprised though that someone hasn't chimed in with the "BIAB=cloudy/ icky beer" old hoary chestnut though, what's up with you guys??!! h34r:

Edit: Clarity.

 

[BjornJ]

My Dr Smurto's Golden Ale tastes good, but is also very unclear.

I thought it was the recipe, with the high amount of wheat that made it not very clear.

It certainly has that orangey color

(have to get my filter sorted again)

thanks
Bjorn

 

[Fourstar]

I thought it was the recipe, with the high amount of wheat that made it not very clear.

Unless it was unconverted starch from raw wheat or any malt in general, it should be as bright as any other beer you make. I do find however that beers i make with wheat end up with a milkier trub/kettle break but never effects the final products clarity.