When recipes are disappointing...

[welly2]

Just cracked open a bottle of my English bitter. Used this recipe:

3.500 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett) (5.9 EBC) 82.4 %
0.350 kg Heritage Crystal Malt (Simpson) (150.0 EBC) 8.2 %
0.200 kg Crystal, Light (Simpsons) (80.0 EBC) 4.7 %
0.200 kg Wheat, Terrified (3.3 EBC) 4.7 %
20.00 g Northdown [8.30 %] - Boil 60.0 min 18.6 IBUs
20.00 g Challenger [8.40 %] - Boil 15.0 min 9.3 IBUs
20.00 g Challenger [8.40 %] - Boil 5.0 min 3.8 IBUs
30.00 g Challenger [8.40 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [35.49 ml]

To me, it looks good on paper/pixels but it's just not great to drink. It doesn't taste infected, although there's a little bit of a earthy taste at the back of the palate. When I'm drinking it, it's not so bad that I want to spit it out but it's just not good. Is it a case that sometimes a recipe that looks alright just isn't? I've been pretty lucky with my brewing so far in as far as every beer I've made up until this one has been a cracker.

Alright, there was that first extract TUBS affair brewed up in Darwin at room temperature (about 28-30c most of the ferment) which wasn't what I'd describe as "a cracker". And the Coopers DIY kit I brewed in Sydney first time which wasn't amazing either. But since then, they've all been beauties, so it's a bit of a disappointment.

Should I be analysing this to figure out what went wrong or just put it down to that combination of ingredients just didn't work (even if it looks like it should have)?

Cheers

 

[Droopy Brew]

Could be the brewing process- post your mash regime etc. Also what dont you like about it? Too sweet, not sweet enough? No body, no head? Not enough malt backbone, not enough bitterness?

Difficult to pin down a reason when we dont know what the issue with the beer is or the process used to make it. Nothing in the malt bill makes me think it shouldn't make a reasonable beer.

 

[welly2]

Could be the brewing process- post your mash regime etc. Also what dont you like about it? Too sweet, not sweet enough? No body, no head? Not enough malt backbone, not enough bitterness?

Difficult to pin down a reason when we dont know what the issue with the beer is or the process used to make it. Nothing in the malt bill makes me think it shouldn't make a reasonable beer.

Yeah, true enough. It's difficult to describe (I should have another one). It's just a bland drink. Lacking in body, not much bitterness and not much malt flavours. Sweetness (or lack of) is pretty much about how I wanted it. Maybe it's just too dry - it finished up at 1.006.

 

[mofox1]

I've had a slightly off/odd "herbal" quality before, which I put down to the Challenger. This one here, and one other I can't remember... might actually have been one of Midnight Brew's brews (similar style).

Left the keg in the garage for a few months (winter/spring) and it mellowed out nicely.

Just read the last reply... if it is finishing at 1.006 you might want to mash a bit higher, and/or use a yeast that will leave a bit more in it. My current fav for ESBs and English Browns is WLP005. Drops like a stone when it's done, and smells awesome.

 

[Blind Dog]

What temperature did you mash? Given it finished below 1.010 I'd guess low and long? Personally I aim for 68 for 45 min for ordinary bitters for the main sacc rest otherwise they end up too thin.

What temperature did you serve it at and were the bottles properly carbed? Ideally you want to serve a bitter at cellar temps (10C or so) to let the malt and hops shine and you need the carbonation to add a little body and brightness without making it fizzy.

How long since you brewed, pitched yeast and how long since you bottled? Even a week can make a big difference as it take a while for it all to come together.

Nowt wrong with the recipe other than a tad too much crystal for my tastes, but that's just me. Lower alcohol beers are some of the hardest to get right and an take a fair bit of tweaking recipes until you find your sweet spot.

 

[droid]

<edit - not really on topic post>

 

[welly2]

What temperature did you mash? Given it finished below 1.010 I'd guess low and long? Personally I aim for 68 for 45 min for ordinary bitters for the main sacc rest otherwise they end up too thin.

What temperature did you serve it at and were the bottles properly carbed? Ideally you want to serve a bitter at cellar temps (10C or so) to let the malt and hops shine and you need the carbonation to add a little body and brightness without making it fizzy.

How long since you brewed, pitched yeast and how long since you bottled? Even a week can make a big difference as it take a while for it all to come together.

Nowt wrong with the recipe other than a tad too much crystal for my tastes, but that's just me. Lower alcohol beers are some of the hardest to get right and an take a fair bit of tweaking recipes until you find your sweet spot.

Actually thin is the right word. It's definitely thin. There is bits of malt and hop flavour but none of them are particularly prominent. Mashed for 30 minutes at 62c, 30 at 66c and 15 minute mashout at 75c (according to my brew book). I took this schedule from an article on byo.com about British bitters.

Brewed on the Saturday and chilled to about 30c with my grainfather CFC and let it chill in the fridge for a few hours until it got to pitching temperature. I'm pretty sure I pitched the yeast the same day. I don't think I did anything unusual but yeah, it's thin alright. I should try mashing at a higher temperature and may try the non-dry English ale yeast. I think I can salvage something from this!

Edit. just pulled my first beer from the hand pump as curiosity got the better of me, which incidentally works a treat. Carbonation is absolutely perfect for a cask conditioned bitter. But it's still thin. When I get a good beer from it, it'll be amazing!

 

[Bribie G]

That's about twice the amount of hops I'd put in an English Special Bitter and about the same amount of malt. It's almost a clone of a couple of my latest Yorkshire Bitters that are full and malty and nicely hop accented.
I'd consider a single infusion mash at 66.

 

[welly2]

That's about twice the amount of hops I'd put in an English Special Bitter and about the same amount of malt. It's almost a clone of a couple of my latest Yorkshire Bitters that are full and malty and nicely hop accented.
I'd consider a single infusion mash at 66.

I think I might have got the base recipe from one of your posts. It does actually taste better out of the polypin than it does out of the bottle although it's probably psychological and me willing this beer to taste alright. I'll have another go and drop the 15 minute hop addition. In the meantime I'll be happy(ish) drinking it out of the hand pump.

 

[technobabble66]

As per BD, how long has it been in the bottle? (did you leave it to sit in the FV for an extra few days after hitting FG?).
I've found my (few) UK bitters (or rather anything with a higher %-age of crystal/dark malts) need extra time to age a little in the bottle before hitting their best. I found ~3 months is ideal.

And yeah, the OG seems a few points too low. I'd mash at 66-67°C for an hour.

And as per BribieG, i've found that hops thrown in late seem to get in the way of what makes UK bitters great - i.e.: the best qualities of the malts. Sometimes it can work (with a little EKG), but it seems to be a very fine line between a small amount of late or dry hops helping, and too much overshadowing & muddying the malts.

Basically, i'd see a hoppy version of a bitter is really just an Amber, which maybe also has a slightly different in the malt profile; whereas the UK bitters are the malty & yeasty version of an Amber, with more simple & "clean" malt elements prominent.

2c

EDIT: to be fair, i certainly wouldn't have thought the recipe looks dubious, so i can sympathise with your original thoughts of WTF.

 

[RdeVjun]

Not an easy style to perfect on the first time around, but the 62C step is way too long IMO, no wonder the FG is so low and it's thin, so I'd follow Bribie's advice on mashing too, see if that works for you.
FWIW I'm on TTL variant # forty something and still quite a way off what I originally wanted, probably further than when I started them, but it's been fun and insightful, plus it means that there's usually a keg of Pommy Bitter on at my place.

 

[welly2]

As per BD, how long has it been in the bottle? (did you leave it to sit in the FV for an extra few days after hitting FG?).
I've found my (few) UK bitters (or rather anything with a higher %-age of crystal/dark malts) need extra time to age a little in the bottle before hitting their best. I found ~3 months is ideal.

And yeah, the OG seems a few points too low. I'd mash at 66-67°C for an hour.

And as per BribieG, i've found that hops thrown in late seem to get in the way of what makes UK bitters great - i.e.: the best qualities of the malts. Sometimes it can work (with a little EKG), but it seems to be a very fine line between a small amount of late or dry hops helping, and too much overshadowing & muddying the malts.

Basically, i'd see a hoppy version of a bitter is really just an Amber, which maybe also has a slightly different in the malt profile; whereas the UK bitters are the malty & yeasty version of an Amber, with more simple & "clean" malt elements prominent.

2c

EDIT: to be fair, i certainly wouldn't have thought the recipe looks dubious, so i can sympathise with your original thoughts of WTF.

It's not been in the bottle for that long - couple of weeks but I suspect more time in the bottle isn't really going to help it. Thin is definitely the operative word here. I won't chuck it but I can't imagine ageing is going to do it a lot of good. Anyway, they can't all be winners! I'll have another bash at this in a few weeks when the fermenter is freed up.

 

[technobabble66]

Put it this way, I'd be inclined to think it's not going to get any worse letting it sit for 2-3 months. But it might be A LOT better!

My first experience with this was with an Amber (with waaaay too many different malts in it - esp lots of crystals, plus Amber, plus Victory).
2 weeks after bottling i eagerly opened it, took the first mouthful, and sat back and thought, well, that's a bit fucked, i thought it'd much better than that! - muddy flavours with a slight harshness or astringency to it. Just decided aah well learning experience, and just went back to drinking my other beers and left it forgotten for a while. 2 months later i tried it and was surprised how much better it was - smoother with a bit more harmony. At the 3 month mark, it was really good, and is still one of the best i've done (and continued to be as good for another 6 months or so).

So your choice, but i'd suggest don't be so hard on yourself & the beer. Shelve it for 2-3 mo's and drink something else for a while. I'm pretty sure you'll be surprised. If it still sucks, well, apologies, ...& feed it to your mates.

... So I expect to see a report back here in June!! B)

EDIT: Obviously the thinness won't improve - that'll still be resigned to a learning experience, i'm afraid. But the other aspects should improve. I'd definitely go with the others, re: Mash schedule, for future ESBs

 

[Dan Pratt]

Hi Welly,

Backing up alot of what's been posted, the first thing I thought was with that yeast and 13% crystal its too dry. That 63c mash increased the thin dryness and then gives a off finish that doesn't allow the crystal to sit on the palate. The dryness also makes the hops come forward creating that herbally flavour.

Try it again, mash higher, skipping the 63 rest. Change the yeast to 002 which is English but a low attenuator. You will make the beer right.

 

[Blind Dog]

Actually thin is the right word. It's definitely thin. There is bits of malt and hop flavour but none of them are particularly prominent. Mashed for 30 minutes at 62c, 30 at 66c and 15 minute mashout at 75c (according to my brew book). I took this schedule from an article on byo.com about British bitters.

Brewed on the Saturday and chilled to about 30c with my grainfather CFC and let it chill in the fridge for a few hours until it got to pitching temperature. I'm pretty sure I pitched the yeast the same day. I don't think I did anything unusual but yeah, it's thin alright. I should try mashing at a higher temperature and may try the non-dry English ale yeast. I think I can salvage something from this!

Edit. just pulled my first beer from the hand pump as curiosity got the better of me, which incidentally works a treat. Carbonation is absolutely perfect for a cask conditioned bitter. But it's still thin. When I get a good beer from it, it'll be amazing!

Photo on 8-03-2016 at 16.45.jpg

F***ing BYO. Its a great magazine, but there a whole bunch of randomly weirdly stupid stuff, particularly from a while back, that makes me think the author or editor (probably both) were pissed as farts. 62 will make it as dry as a dingos donger. Try 66 (Graham Wheeler and Bribie G both know their stuff) with the same recipe - drop the hops a little if you want, but I wouldn't as you've got a bunch of crystal to balance. I just found 68 is my sweet spot, at least partly as I tend to serve them a little cold (hangs head in shame) as I only have the one keezer at the moment.

 

[Weizguy]

I think the yeast is at least partially to blame, with its high attenuation. Much better in bigger beers. (*edit: +1 for WLP005)
Maybe the mash schedule too, but the recipe looks fine.
How fresh and aromatic were the hops? Is the flavour you get from the beer somewhat grassy?
If you bottles have higher CO2 than the polypin (duh), the carbonic acidity may wash out some of the maltiness.
Hand pump this beer if you can.

 

[MastersBrewery]

There is also the matter of personal taste, seems you were always heading for hop forward dry finish, I'd lean more to the high 60's, especially if I was going to put it through an Engine. You'll probably find with decent body behind it the malt and hops will balance out nicely. I feel without the malt to support the hops neither will come through well.

I only had a couple of beers from hand pump and both had big malt profiles and were bang on for bitterness, makes you wanna buy one straight up!

 

[Blind Dog]

Just a thought, but do you have a favourite English bitter? There's such a huge array and a massive difference between, say, a pint of Butcombe and a pint of Sam Smiths. i know it's standard to say 'adjust one thing at a time', but (IMO) that's only good advice if you're starting in the ballpark.

 

[welly2]

Favourite English bitters - Sam Smiths Old Brewery Bitter, Old Speckled Hen, Theakstons, Directors, Fullers Chiswick Bitter and Black Sheep Bitter are probably my favourites, swaying more towards the Yorkshire Bitters.

I'm going to try high 60s and a standard English Ale yeast next time! I'll start with that and see if I get some of my flavour back, and back off the % too. I was aiming at a Sunday arvo session beer with a pork pie, a slab of cheddar and a healthy pile of pickle on the side. Instead I've got a 5.25% head smasher. I'll knock that 15 minute hop addition on the head too.

Cheers all, big help!

 

[rude]

1.006 that is low could'nt get it down there if I tried

Pommy bitters 1010 1012 keep it simple for these recipes 66 c to 68c mash for me but
Im still in the cooler esky mush tun so some times comes out 64c 65c no worries

I only have used wyeast ( hsb doesnt do WL )

All challanger with whitbred ale Marris Otter grain a touch of med crystal & wheat too easy