What's All This About Not Sparging?

[luanero]

I'm about to embark on AG, but I'm thinking of bringing along some old baggage from the extract days... My wort cooling system. It involves boiling/hopping with a concentrated wort (e.g. 15l), then dumping 10l of pre-boiled ice into the kettle at flame out. It pretty "cool" to watch the thermo drop to 35 deg in about 5 mins, while I "relax and (quickly) have a homebrew". So far the beer has tasted passable also (guests have actually started asking for more!), but a move to AG has made it to the NY resolution list, and so...

After attempting to absorb what AG is all about I see one problem is that most recipes require about 24-25l of pre-boil runnings. About half of this might come from sparging, and this is all totally incompatible with the aforementioned ice dumping scenario.

Now, I am aware that your hop bill must be increased to account for the higher gravity of the concentrated wort, but can I otherwise rejig the recipes to avoid sparging? I guess I'm talking about the grain bill here - e.g. how much extra gravity does the sparging provide? Can this be compensated-for by adding more grain (& to hell with efficiency!)?

And what else does / might the sparging provide to the fermentation & final taste? Are thereby bits of chemical goodness added that without which my beer will be forever beset with homebrew twang?

Or, should I forget this idea altogether and use a run-of-the-mill cooling system?

M.

 

[jonocarroll]

Good to hear that you're moving to the dark side (we have cookies!) but I think you might need a few more reads of 'How to Brew' (check out the website).

The 2 minute (typical 3-vessel setup) version;

- grains go into the mashtun with hot water, where the starches convert to sugars
- the liquid (with dissolved sugars) is transferred (runnings) to the kettle and more liquid is added to the mash tun to wash more sugars out of the grain - this is the sparge
- the sugary liquid (now of a lower gravity than you will want at the end) is boiled for some time with hops, and in doing so the gravity is increased (via volume being reduced). The time that you will want to boil for depends on what you want from the wort and hops, but an hour is typical
- the wort is cooled down somehow prior to fermentation, and from this point you basically have the same steps as extract.

Now, as for 'half of this might come from sparging' do you perhaps mean that the extra water comes from additional 'refills'? If so, the point of this is to get more sugars out. Unfortunately more grain actually lowers the efficiency, if you're thinking of using first-runnings only.

When I said that the wort is cooled somehow, one option is no-chilling (very popular) where you fill a plastic jerry-can/cube/etc with 100C wort, squeeze out the air, and seal, effectively pasteurizing the plastic. Another option is to boil the liquid for longer to get a higher gravity/lower volume which you can (if you were so inclined to) add ice to in order to cool it. Various programs will calculate the required numbers for you.

As for sparging adding qualities to a beer - I'm not sure I follow. Most AG brewers will aim to get about 75% of the maximum amount of sugars out of their grain, and those who don't use a brew-in-a-bag system (even some that do) will do that by sparging. It doesn't change the sugars, just gets more out.

Anyway, before you go considering avoiding sparging and using ice (which is very likely to have contaminants, like it or not) why not consider doing the sparge as per normal, boiling your entire liquid volume, and in lieu of a chiller, have a go at no-chill.

 

[luanero]

ok, thanks QB for your thoughtful reply. I think we agree on the efficiency thing, however from what you say I do seem to have misunderstood the term "runnings", which I had thought included the sparge water.

This being the case then what I'm suggesting is; how can I modify a typical recipe to not rely on at least 10l of sparge water? It is this volume which I propose will come from the pre-boiled (i.e. sanitised) ice. So when you say "It doesn't change the sugars, just gets more out" - I'm interested to know, "how much?".

I have tried the cube - alas I do not like it - moving boiling wort, at least in my "setup", does not make for a nice spot of Sunday afternoon brewing, what with oxidation and 3rd degree burns etc... Thanks for the suggestion though.

M.

 

[Hatchy]

The sparge water becomes the 2nd runnings when it comes out of the mash tun into the kettle.

You don't have to sparge but most (all?) 3v brewers do to get as much sugar as we can (within reason) from the grain. As QB said, I'd be suspicious of that ice. Are you freezing the pre boiled water in a sanitised freezer?

What are the limitations of yr setup that stop you from no chilling? Do you siphon the wort to yr fermenter once it's chilled?

 

[katzke]

There are a few people doing concentrated BIAB brews on the stove. This system may be something you can use with your ice system. BIAB does not require a sparge step. I have brewed up to 1.070 beers with BIAB so it should work for a high gravity wort you plan on diluting.

You could also look into no-chill brewing.

I know the search function is not the best on the forum. Try search for concentrated BIAB, stovetop BIAB, or something like that.

Other then the increased hop usage the only other down side I see with your idea is more grain needed. As you increase the gravity of the wort, it gets harder to get all the sugars out of the grain. You may need to add dry extract to any beer over about 1.050.

 

[Barry]

When I brew a low gravity beer, such as a English Southern Brown, and I want more body and flavour I do this. I add a third more grain to the recipe and only collect 20 litres of runnings. I then add 10 litres of water to the boil. You could collect the amount of higher gravity wort that you want (20 litres?) and boil it then add your frozen water to cool.
Work out the percentage of the final wort that will be frozen water and increase your grain bill by this percentage. A good starting point which you can adjust with trial and error.

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

Here is the Link to the thread Katzke mentioned. I use this method also , you could still sparge and get the extra efficiency we are all after if you have the right size pot. I do between 20 and 23 litre batches with a 19 litre pot so it stands to reason that you could use the same method with a 30 litre pot and instead of adding top up water, you add your ice.

The only down falls that I'm aware of are :

1.You will loose about 5% efficiency with a thick mash from my experience
2.You have to use 15 to 20 % more hops because of the gravity of the wort

Hope that helps

 

[Pennywise]

I don't always sparge because I only do 12L boils for a 21L batch ATM, so my normal-high gravity beers are based on 10% less efiiciency than my sparged brews. I only know this 10% figure because of trial and error, I think everyones systems would differ quite a bit re efficiency & no-sparge

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Yes, you can increase you grain to make up for the lack of efficiency. In fact most BIAB, especially those using the stovetop method, do high grav brews.

To get my sparge runnings into the pot and not affect the amount of coolness I can add (I use 2L ice blocks as necessary to cool), I'll boil longer to get a higher concentrate (and therefore the runnings are used, which is efficient, but without sacrificing cooling ability).

I sometimes will boil for 1/2 to 3/4 an hour before I start what would be the "official" boil. I have marks in my pots whereby once I get down to that mark, I start "official" boiling, which will be when I start timing for hop additions.

So if my "official" boil is 60 minutes long and I have a 60, 30, 15 and flameout addition, I'll do the 60 minute hop addition at the start of "official" boiling, and time back from there.

The worst that has every happened is that I've ended up with 20L instead of 23L of higher grav beer.

@OP - what is the reason for not sparging? Is it time to cool down? My method won't save time (in fact it'll add time).

My cooling system involves pot in sink, run water around outside of pot, until it I can touch the outside of the pot, then add iceblock to bring down to 30 degrees.

Goomba

 

[wynnum1]

Putting 10l of pre-boiled ice into the kettle at flame out better to wait for temperature to drop and then put ice in 35 deg is good for infection where as 70 or 80 deg is safe temp and hot liquid cools quicker how long to drop when you have down to 35

 

[jonocarroll]

Putting 10l of pre-boiled ice into the kettle at flame out better to wait for temperature to drop and then put ice in 35 deg is good for infection where as 70 or 80 deg is safe temp and hot liquid cools quicker how long to drop when you have down to 35

In the interest of donating, here - have some punctuation, it's on me. Really, I insist - I have plenty.

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It's best to get the wort cooled and either isolated or inoculated as soon as possible.

 

[Bribie G]

You could do a "hybrid" system - do a no chill batch to get 15L of wort into a cube - the sort that many Fresh wort kits come in, not so big as the "normal" 23L cube that most people seem to use - and have 7 litres of clean ice. You can safely leave the wort in the cube for as long as it takes to get down to say 50 degrees then put the whole lot into the fermenter and pitch straight away.

You would need to find out how to do the exact temperature formula.

 

[jonocarroll]

You could do a "hybrid" system - do a no chill batch to get 15L of wort into a cube - the sort that many Fresh wort kits come in, not so big as the "normal" 23L cube that most people seem to use - and have 7 litres of clean ice. You can safely leave the wort in the cube for as long as it takes to get down to say 50 degrees then put the whole lot into the fermenter and pitch straight away.

You would need to find out how to do the exact temperature formula.

The following [adapted from my post here] assumes that the two fluids have the same specific heat, which they won't - wort will take more energy to heat/cool. For the sake of simplicity, I'll assume the same for now.

Here's a graph of the cooling abilities of frozen water (0C), unfrozen water (also 0C, but not needing to be melted), and tepid water (20C). The calculation assumes that the wort is at 100C, and you are going to make up 23L total. I have assumed that the wort is just water, with the common heat capacity. The calculation assumes you need to extract x joules of heat from y litres of a hot liquid to cool (23-y) litres of a warm liquid such that they reach a common final temperature.



As you can see, adding 10L of ice at 0C to 13L of wort at 100C results in 23L of 22C water. Interestingly, if you add 13kg of ice to the 10L of water, you'll bring the entire batch down from 100C to 0C... but you won't freeze it of course.

A single kg of ice saves you about 7C.

After all that... no-chill FTW!!!

 

[luanero]

generous posters - i hope you're as liberal with your beer as you are your words, but let me reply in turn...

Hatchy - no the freezer itself is not sanitised, but the vessels (2 & 4l ice cream containers) in which boiling water is poured & sealed i think are thereby rendered safe. Indeed, after a dozen or so extracts I remain unacquainted with Infection. As for no chilling, I have not the facility to move boiling wort and avoid hot side aeration. I tried no chilling once and this was the only beer I have brewed which qualified only for irrigating fruit trees, and so once bitten...

Katzky - BIAB: what expanse of rock have I been living under to have never encountered this acronym? A whole world of information is revealed.

Barry - I will try and adapt your methods, as I am usually brewing at these gravities, although as QB indicates above, I am somewhat bound in volume terms by the ratio of boiling and frozen water when the total to be fermented (usually 25l) remains constant. I have found that 15l boiled and 10l frozen puts me at about 35deg (FWIW, o.g. is usually hovering around 1050), and then it's into the fermenter and into the fridge at 0deg for 3-4 hours, then I can usually pitch ale yeast at 22-23 deg. If it's to be a lager then I have to be more patient prior to pitching.

Your rule of thumb in relation to adjusting grain bill in proportion to the amount of ice is precisely the sort of thing I was looking for. Thankyou.

BeerBob (and somewhat tangentially, BribieG) - Are you are suggesting adding the boiling wort to the fermenter, which might already have the ice waiting? This would involve shifting hot liquids without the requisite equipment. This is against my religion (Darwinism).

I am impressed with the number of no chill advocates writing here. Since so many find it suitable this alone may be encouragement enough to reconsider my contempt for this method.

Dear Lord (Goomba), Please forgive me for I am a hopeless sinner... Oh & BTW, my reason for considering not sparging is so that I have the right ratio of boiling wort and frozen ice to wind-up with 25l at around 25-35degC about 5 mins after finishing the boil. And finally, if you have such powers, can you please make my next beer taste really really nice. Amen.

Wynnum1 - I'm afraid I'm at a loss to fully comprehend this contribution, however it does serve to emphasise the clarifying effects of punctuation. Perhaps I will throw a few commas and the odd full stop or question mark in my beer as finings...

And, QB - This graph remains a mystery to my numerically challenged mind. I did attempt to break-out a number of equations myself in determining this 3:2 wort/ice balance, which, for some reason that now eludes me, appeared to be the ideal at the time. But lo - from what you say a little extra ice would get me safely into the 20-25deg zone, thereby avoiding the 35 deg "infection rest", and allowing me to directly pitch. So maybe I'll up the ice to 12l and see how I go, since now I can readily adjust the grain bill according to Barry's rule of thumb.

Again, thanks all for your assistance & patience & knowledge etc etc...

 

[Hatchy]

I'm guessing from that post that yr looking at brewing 3v. What size kettle do you have? Are you using a pot without a tap? Even without a tap you can no chill by syphoning. The 1st batch I brewed with flowers blocked my pickup tube so I had to siphon the wort into the cube.

If you want to chill with ice then I'm sure you'll make beer, it's just not a method I've heard/read about for an AG beer. Let us know how you go.

I've got stacks of freezer room & my standard batch is 35L no chilled in a 60L fermenter. This could be a way for me to get a bigger batch size & chill as well but I'm going to wait to see how you go before I try it.

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

BeerBob (and somewhat tangentially, BribieG) - Are you are suggesting adding the boiling wort to the fermenter, which might already have the ice waiting? This would involve shifting hot liquids without the requisite equipment. This is against my religion (Darwinism).

No mate same vessel/pot, in short. Put 14 litres of water in a 30 ltr pot, add 5kg of grain and mash for 60, sparge twice with 5 ltrs of water each twice, add all the wort to the one pot and boil away for 75 minutes, you should be left with about 16-17ltrs of 1.077 wort and add you ice to that, take out your trub and you just got yourself a very quickly chilled 23 ltr batch.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

snip

Dear Lord (Goomba), Please forgive me for I am a hopeless sinner... Oh & BTW, my reason for considering not sparging is so that I have the right ratio of boiling wort and frozen ice to wind-up with 25l at around 25-35degC about 5 mins after finishing the boil. And finally, if you have such powers, can you please make my next beer taste really really nice. Amen.

Lord of the noble type, not the Divine. :lol:

I'm with you - AG (and my method) does take a bucketload longer. Extract brewing is fantastic for the time saving not mashing and the like. However, when one gets more creative with their hop use (such as multiple hop additions at different times), then boiling times increase as a result.

The only other way I can see to save you cooling time is to boil longer and end up with high grav concentrate (effectively extract) and then ice it, but as you said, it will dilute your hopping as well, so it will require an increase in hops to counter.

Goomba

 

[jonocarroll]

And, QB - This graph remains a mystery to my numerically challenged mind. I did attempt to break-out a number of equations myself in determining this 3:2 wort/ice balance, which, for some reason that now eludes me, appeared to be the ideal at the time.

New graph for 25L ferment;



The total final volume is now 25L. This means you are adding XL of ice to (25-X)L of 100C wort. e.g. 10L ice to 15L of boiling wort.

Pick the final temperature you want on the vertical axis (say, 35C) and move horizontally until you hit the blue 'ice' line, then follow this down to the horizontal axis. This tells you how much ice, (in this example, X = 9kg) I predict you need to get (25-X = 16)L of wort down to that temperature. Pretty close to your experience - the difference is in an assumption I've used about how wort absorbs heat... a good approximation it seems.

OR: Pick the amount of ice you want to use (say, 12L) on the horizontal axis, follow it up to the 'ice' line, then across to the vertical axis - this is the temperature you will end up with by adding that amount of ice to wort to make up 25L (in this example, 12L of ice into 13L of wort gets you down to about 15C).

The cooling power obviously gets better if your wort isn't at 100C, but this should be a pretty good guestimate of what you need.

The other option: how difficult would it be to get a tap installed in your kettle?

 

[stux]

Get some half " silicon hose and a jiggle syphon from gryphon brewing

Then you can safely transfer your hot wort

 

[speedie]

why? wouldnt you want to sparge your potential yield extract
i see it this way
buy a cartoon of any brew that you like open 4-5 vessels then pour them down the drain
do you now get why you should sparge lauter rinse what ever
it is all to do with recovery of sugars from your grain bill
dam ask any biab brewer