Wetting grain before milling Vs not wetting it

[Ducatiboy stu]

interesting stuff, the for and against are pretty evenly split..







To keep the other thread from getting hijacked discussign wet milling, I thought Id port some of the discussion evolving there to here.


seems to me that if you aren't having lauter troubles, why bother, it reads as though it can (and I've witnessed it, see breakbeers post #2) lead to other issues and cost a shitload of time, personally, I don't have that time to spend cleaning rollers and blowing up drills.

Im not saying that it doesn't have it's place, system dependent, or that people don't get good results by adding another process, I've never had a stuck sparge on my system (No fekkin oats) so why would I bother?

Ive only got steel rollers also, it's been mentioned that rust could be an issue, anyone suffered from this?

That is all true. But it will help you to get the tiniest teeny little bit more from your mash and give you your highest SG...as we all know, every little bit helps

 

[Yob]

If we're talking about handful of malt versus an extra process with risks and added time and effort. Think I'll chuck an extra handful in and be done with it

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Bit like re-hydra.....nah...lets not go there..

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

If we're talking about handful of malt versus an extra process with risks and added time and effort. Think I'll chuck an extra handful in and be done with it

But thats cheating <_<

 

[Mardoo]

Clocks are helpful when re-hydrating wet-milled grain with kittens.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

You need to wrap the clock in glad wrap first and let it cool down naturally

 

[MHB]

There are two terms being tossed around.
Conditioning Malt is a process that hydrates the husk, making it springier and less fragile so we get better filter beds when lautering. If you are BIAB its going to be pretty irrelevant. in a 3V system it might be useful, for a recirculating system it might give some real advantages, and it really can be a big help to efficiency and lautering speeds in big breweries, where those things matter.
On the other hand if you don't do it properly you have a very good chance of causing very highly increases Oxidation of the wort particularly though increased Lipoxeygenase activity
Wet milling is another thing entirely, that is where the strike water and the malt are milled together, again probably more useful to bigger brewers.

To do either well does require a bit of preplanning and ideally some specialised equipment,
Another approach that might be worth looking at is to use steam, with household steam cleaners/wands being so common, a few minutes of stirring the malt in a bucket with a steam hose might work well.

Personally I think that unless your mill has duel roller drive and likely something better than a knurled surface there isn't going to be much point, Knurled rollers and idling rollers will always shred the husk more than a bit of conditioning is going to compensate for.
Mark

 

[Killer Brew]

Can I ask what is the knock on a blast with a blender? I thought the speed and ease of doing this with 800g yesterday would be hard to go past plus I may save some bucks not having to purchase a mill. The dampening of the grain (20ml water for the 800g) may or may not have contributed to what I thought was a good outcome but I hit above predicted OG by some way.

Having not milled grain before to compare to though I'm not sure what I may be missing.

 

[seamad]

If using a blender adding water is pretty pointless. A blender may work OK for BIAB, but if running a recirc system ( I do ) then you need the husks to help set up a filter bed.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Personally I think that unless your mill has duel roller drive and likely something better than a knurled surface there isn't going to be much point, Knurled rollers and idling rollers will always shred the husk more than a bit of conditioning is going to compensate for.
Mark

I always get a much better crush and intact husks with the grain wetting ( or moistening ) and I have knurled rollers with only one driven. Roller speed also has a lot to do with shredding husks as well.. I try to aim for about 30% flour.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Can I ask what is the knock on a blast with a blender? I thought the speed and ease of doing this with 800g yesterday would be hard to go past plus I may save some bucks not having to purchase a mill. The dampening of the grain (20ml water for the 800g) may or may not have contributed to what I thought was a good outcome but I hit above predicted OG by some way.

Having not milled grain before to compare to though I'm not sure what I may be missing.

Basically as Seamad said, wetting and using a blender is pointless. A blender will tend to cut the grains up regardless. Milling actually crushes the grain, and moistening the husks allows the husk to remain flexible so the inner kernal/endosperm can still be crushed effectively.

Moistening is not the be all and end all. It is just one thing that can help you on your way to efficiency nirvana. Just moistening alone wont do much at all if the rest of your process is not spot on and equipment dialed in.

 

[Black n Tan]

On the other hand if you don't do it properly you have a very good chance of causing very highly increases Oxidation of the wort particularly though increased Lipoxeygenase activity

Can you please explain how improper wet conditioning can lead to this?

 

[Bribie G]

Used to when I had a drill running the mill......Now I mill by hand don't need to. On my mill at least the slower speed seems to not tear the husk up as much.

Am one day going to get it motorised at around 150rpm rather than the 500 or so the drill would run it at.

Oh yeah, only ever did it with base malts....never specs.

I use an Ozito spade handled drill that's super high torque and can be set very slow to spin my Italian Marga Mill about the same speed as an Italian Mama with PMT who has just found out that Luigi has been shagging her sister.

I seem to remember Ross telling me how this "wetting" thing came about originally and why it's not necessary.

Probably same source as the kittens legend.

 

[professional_drunk]

This is my standard process now.

• since doing it, never had a wort fountain on a bm even with 70% wheat.
• can't be stuffed messing around with roller gap. Just set it to smallest.
• filter plates are easier to clean as there's less small particles.
• chickens have to spend less time pecking at the grains

 

[RobW]

Can you please explain how improper wet conditioning can lead to this?

and Mark does it matter if you're then going to boil it off?

 

[MHB]

B&T
Lipids are a type of fatty acids, mostly found in the acrospires (germ of the malt), this is where during malting the rootlet was attached, so its where water can most easily get into the malted barley corn.
If you hydrate the acrospires and the temperature is in the right range (60-70oC peak activity) and there is oxygen around Lipoxygenase will oxidise the lipids and start (or more properly accelerate) the staling process. The oxidation of lipids is one of the primary cause of staling in beer anyway, there is relatively very little O2 in strike water, and lots in air.

Keeping the hydrating water over 80oC helps, industrially they take a variety of measures to reduce the effect, peeling the angiosperm before crushing, hydrating in a CO2/N2 atmosphere, immersion in de-aired water, using steam...

Like many things in brewing, malt conditioning can be beneficial, if you do it properly, do a half arsed job and you will make half arsed beer.

Mark

Edit
Rob W
No, I believe oxidised fatty acids are not volatile, like putting rancid butter in a cup of tea - its a very unpleasant flavour I would go to some lengths to avoid.
M

 

[seamad]

So if you hydrate at room temp ( say 25C) how much lipoxygenase activity would you expect ?

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Most brewers I know only use tap water to moisten, which is normally around the 20*c mark.

 

[RobW]

B&T
Lipids are a type of fatty acids, mostly found in the acrospires (germ of the malt), this is where during malting the rootlet was attached, so its where water can most easily get into the malted barley corn.
If you hydrate the acrospires and the temperature is in the right range (60-70oC peak activity) and there is oxygen around Lipoxygenase will oxidise the lipids and start (or more properly accelerate) the staling process. The oxidation of lipids is one of the primary cause of staling in beer anyway, there is relatively very little O2 in strike water, and lots in air.

Keeping the hydrating water over 80oC helps, industrially they take a variety of measures to reduce the effect, peeling the angiosperm before crushing, hydrating in a CO2/N2 atmosphere, immersion in de-aired water, using steam...

Like many things in brewing, malt conditioning can be beneficial, if you do it properly, do a half arsed job and you will make half arsed beer.

Mark

Edit
Rob W
No, I believe oxidised fatty acids are not volatile, like putting rancid butter in a cup of tea - its a very unpleasant flavour I would go to some lengths to avoid.
M

Thanks mark - understood

 

[Black n Tan]

If you hydrate the acrospires and the temperature is in the right range (60-70oC peak activity) and there is oxygen around Lipoxygenase will oxidise the lipids and start (or more properly accelerate) the staling process. The oxidation of lipids is one of the primary cause of staling in beer anyway, there is relatively very little O2 in strike water, and lots in air.

Keeping the hydrating water over 80oC helps, industrially they take a variety of measures to reduce the effect, peeling the angiosperm before crushing, hydrating in a CO2/N2 atmosphere, immersion in de-aired water, using steam...

Would expect this to occur at 20-30C? I have conditioned before with 1-2% water and then let the malt sit for 30 mins at room temp (say 20ish C) before milling. Would you expect much lipid oxidation at these temps?