Westy 12 any thoughts.

[Grmblz]

I'm stocked up on my usual RIS's/BW's and Imperial IPA's so I've decided to do a Westy 12 for Xmas.
4.5kg Belgian pilsner (grain and grape)
2.5kg Belgian pale? Can't find it anywhere, would assume German pale pretty close but don't know, any ideas?
1.2kg D180? many options, some offer D180 others offer "dark" are they one and the same?

Recipe from Candi syrup, any thoughts/suggestions?

 

[MHB]

There are to the best of my knowledge two reasonably available brands on the market Candi Syrup Inc and Dark Candi. Candi Syrup tend to supply in prefilled sachets, Dark Candy mostly in bulk (25 kg drums) that some home brew shops repackage. My local packs them in 750mL PET beer bottles (1kg).
Personally I cant tell the difference between the two so which ever you can get easiest or best.
I wouldn't try to make a home made version for a beer like Westy 12, Its just too important a part of the flavour.

Just taking a look at a couple of shops, both Candies appear to be around $20/kg, I know but it tastes soo dam good. I have been known to have the Amber on pancakes (more than once) actually cheaper than Maple syrup which is the alternative for me.
Mark

PS
Pile in the yeast I mean go balistic...
M

 

[Grmblz]

Thanks Mark, agreed 100% on the Candi, I've made my own and whilst interesting it's not the same as the commercial stuff, I was just unsure about "dark" being the same as D180.
The other concern was the Belgian pale, do you think the German pale would be as close as I can get?
Yeast wise I'm thinking of doing a Westy 12 light, spin up to 2L and use exactly the same recipe just scaled back for an OG1040 then pitch the cake for the main event.
I'm not convinced about the "simplicity candi" for bottling, thinking invert, thoughts?

 

[MHB]

Well as the Westvleteren Pale Ale (Westy 6) is one of my favorite Belgian Pales, and they use the same yeast, I would do that one first then bomb the 12 onto the yeast cake.

The D180 is just Dark with an SRM of 180, The Dark Candi product D2 has an SRM of 80 (157EBC) so clearly there would be some adjustment required to match the colours.

I would think the Weyermann Ale malt would be a good call, though I have mostly used just Pilsner and D2 Candi. I think there is a single malt recipe on the Candi Syrup website that's the one I have worked from.

The whole "Invert" thing is very 1970's, yeast is quite capable of inverting sugar, these days its more about being able to pump it and not have it crystalise in the tankers.
The amount you need for bottling I would just use household white, or dextrose.
Mark

 

[Grmblz]

Copy that, good call on the 6, thanks for the input.

 

[squirt in the turns]

Copy that, good call on the 6, thanks for the input.

So, what's the recipe for the 6?

I had it on tap at the brewery, wouldn't mind giving it a crack.

 

[Grmblz]

If you like Belgians do NOT! visit this site, you'll be down the rabbit hole in seconds.
http://www.candisyrup.com/recipes.html

 

[squirt in the turns]

If you like Belgians do NOT! visit this site, you'll be down the rabbit hole in seconds.
http://www.candisyrup.com/recipes.html

What's the decoction for? Are you supposed to bring it to mash out temp using a decoction? It's not clear from the wording.

Grmblz, how are you planning to package your 12? And where/how are you cellaring it? Something that has always put me off doing bigger beers that require or benefit from aging is that I can only store them at ambient.

 

[Grmblz]

What's the decoction for? Are you supposed to bring it to mash out temp using a decoction? It's not clear from the wording.

Grmblz, how are you planning to package your 12? And where/how are you cellaring it? Something that has always put me off doing bigger beers that require or benefit from aging is that I can only store them at ambient.

Be sure to read "Crash deglazing" at the bottom of the document.

For all my big beers I use champagne bottles with tirage caps, and for special batches I also seal with wax, there's discussion about O2 ingress with crown caps, I have no evidence either way but the wax adds a certain WOW! factor, and given I sometimes come across bottles 5 or 6 yrs old it may have some benefit.
After recovering from the shock of commercial wax pricing I found this How to make Bottling, Sealing or Stamp Wax it's a bit of a fiddle but works well.

Storage is under the house but I'm far South coast, and that part of the house is double brick, and on the South side so rarely gets above 20c, still a bit on the warm side but it's a stable environment with no big temp swings, and usually sits around 14-15c.
Previously I used a big chest freezer set to 12c, it's amazing how many bottles you can store in them, and being a freezer set at 12c uses surprisingly little power.
When you consider the retail price of the type of beers we're discussing $50-$70 for a long neck, a few bucks a month to run a freezer is insignificant, it depends where you are of course, Darwin will cost more but still doable because you're not trying to maintain -18c.

 

[squirt in the turns]

Cool, so am I right about using the decoction to get to mashout? In which case it'll be a thin decoction (little or no grain removed from the mash), with the main purpose being to use the crash deglazing method utilised to caramelise the wort?

Maybe if/when I move to a bigger place I'll get a dedicated cellaring fridge/freezer. I'm on the Gold Coast so I think I'd have no hope without some form of artificial control. The sea air and humidity would probably rust the caps too, so waxing would be necessary. Looks very fancy, too.

You can buy a bottle of Westvleteren 12 for a lot less than $70, if you can get to the brewery

 

[MHB]

What is this "Crash Deglazing" never heard of it before.
Heating any equipment to 180oC then dumping relatively cool wort (mostly water) on to it isn't going to be good for your gear, especially if its good stainless brewery equipment - well let me put it this way, you aren't doing it to mine!
From what little I can find it look like a new idea, probably the result of a stuff-up. You might get away with it in a pot on a stove but I can see it pulling a commercial kettle apart in short order, (unless it was designed for this job).

Decoction is one of the oldest ways to step mash, the calculations are much easier if you use mass rather than volume (not to mention working in metric). Just be a little careful applying new methods to making an old (existing) style of beer. One of the great things about decoction is that it can be worked out empirically, just starting at ambient and doing 3, 1/3 volume decoctions will make beer pretty well. Before the invention of things like decent scales, thermometers... and when working with indifferently modified malt its a great way to brew.
These days its going the way of the dodo, its just too slow and too energy consuming (read expensive) for most breweries, even those old breweries that traditionally did triple decoctions are mostly doing one now, that's a flavour based decision.
Mark

 

[squirt in the turns]

What is this "Crash Deglazing" never heard of it before.
Heating any equipment to 180oC then dumping relatively cool wort (mostly water) on to it isn't going to be good for your gear, especially if its good stainless brewery equipment - well let me put it this way, you aren't doing it to mine!
From what little I can find it look like a new idea, probably the result of a stuff-up. You might get away with it in a pot on a stove but I can see it pulling a commercial kettle apart in short order, (unless it was designed for this job).

Decoction is one of the oldest ways to step mash, the calculations are much easier if you use mass rather than volume (not to mention working in metric). Just be a little careful applying new methods to making an old (existing) style of beer. One of the great things about decoction is that it can be worked out empirically, just starting at ambient and doing 3, 1/3 volume decoctions will make beer pretty well. Before the invention of things like decent scales, thermometers... and when working with indifferently modified malt its a great way to brew.
These days its going the way of the dodo, its just too slow and too energy consuming (read expensive) for most breweries, even those old breweries that traditionally did triple decoctions are mostly doing one now, that's a flavour based decision.
Mark

Well that PDF is dated 2012, so pretty new by brewing standards, especially as that document starts off by talking about ancient Sumeria. If you Google the exact phrase "Crash deglazing", you get 3 hits relating to Candi Syrup, Inc, and one Indonesian page about keto dieting

So maybe you're right Mark, and it's a fool's errand. Or maybe the secret to the perfect Westvleteren 12 clone is hidden in a footnote in an obscure PDF. Either way, it looks like Grmblz is gonna take one for the team and find out!

 

[chookherder]

Thanks Mark, agreed 100% on the Candi, I've made my own and whilst interesting it's not the same as the commercial stuff, I was just unsure about "dark" being the same as D180.
The other concern was the Belgian pale, do you think the German pale would be as close as I can get?
Yeast wise I'm thinking of doing a Westy 12 light, spin up to 2L and use exactly the same recipe just scaled back for an OG1040 then pitch the cake for the main event.
I'm not convinced about the "simplicity candi" for bottling, thinking invert, thoughts?

I found Beerco carry what looks like the whole range of Candi Syrup including the D-180 if you specifically want that one.

https://beerco.com.au/search?q=Candi

 

[MHB]

Westy have a shiny Shultz Brewhouse, they might wear dresses but its a thoroughly modern brewery.
I doubt they are doing anything too adventurous, brewing well but cutting edge I doubt.
Mark

 

[GrumpyPaul]

@Grmblz

The vic case swap guys did a westy 12 collab at a swap a few years ago.

Its a very long thread, about 20 pages, but there will be heaps of discussion on there about the recipe, yeast, fermentation and Candi sugar.

I'm pretty sure it was the 2016 on at Cockos place. I'll try find you a link when I'm in front of a computer

 

[Nullnvoid]

Here you go

https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/vic-xmas-2016-case-swap-recipe-cockos-place.91593/
FWIW, I fermented the cube from this case swap late last year. It had been in the cube for 4 years and still smelt and tasted amazing. It's now in bottles having a sleep for a few more years.

 

[GrumpyPaul]

Recipe on page 13 of that thread.

and then discussion of yeast used and candy additions starts on page 14.

happy reading

 

[Nullnvoid]

Recipe on page 13 of that thread.

and then discussion of yeast used and candy additions starts on page 14.

happy reading

Nah it's quite the adventure, read the whole thing

 

[chookherder]

Hey Grmblz,

I wanted to say thanks to you and Mark for the inspiration to try to brew like a monk...I have finally got a Westy12 fermenting yesterday and wondering how you went?

Using Mark's suggestion, I started with the Westy 6 and used the yeast from that for the 12, it's been a process.

Below is a recap, of events:
13/4 Ordered 1x Bastogne Belgian Ale #WLP510 liquid yeast and 5x D-180 Dark Candi Syrup (16oz pouch)
29/4 Made starter with 3L of 1.040 wort at 21c for 24hrs, stirplate, no oxygen addition (store in fridge)
8/6 Cooked the Westy6 as per recipe above (from candisyrup.com), without the Blanc Soft Candi in the boil
8/6 Pitched the yeast starter into 42.5L @ 1.049 at 17.8ºc
11/6 Pitch in 500g Table Sugar boiled in 500ml water (then chilled to 20c), total calculated OG = 1.054
14/6 Fermentation reaches 24ºc as per recipe @1.013
15/6 Westy6 fermentation still 24º now @1.010 - Harvested Yeast

15/6 Cooked the Westy12 as per recipe, without any D-180 in the boil
15/6 Pitched the Harvested yeast into the Westy12 of 38L @ 1.072 at 17.8ºc

From here I will ramp the Westy12 temp up to 24c over 7days, adding the first pouch of D180 on Day3 (diluted in boiled water) and each subsequent day another pouch, for a total calculated OG 1.088.

I hope all goes to plan, how did you go with yours?

Cheers big beers,
Ben

 

[mynameisrodney]

I brewed this about a year ago. A few notes from mine:

• I used 3787 for the yeast.
• even with ~40% of the fermenter being headspace, I got a blocked airlock (first one ever) and I had to delicately remove it and cover the volcano with a bowl. Got some minor spray onto the ceiling, but not as bad as it could have been. Definitely use a big blow off tube.
• I did a 50/50 pilsner and DME as my BIAB set up wasn't going to fit it.
• FG ended up way too high (can't remember exact number off my head). Not sure if due to using DME.
• Final beer tasted too sweet. A year on it is good, but not great.

I'll be brewing it again learning from my many mistakes haha. I recently bought a Guten 70L and a big part of that was being able to brew bigger beers like this.