Water Chemistry Gurus

[Nick JD]

Just wondering if this is enough info to go on to do water adjustments...

http://www.allconnex.com.au/SiteCollection..._GC_2010-11.pdf

http://www.allconnex.com.au/myhome/waterqu...es/default.aspx

Sounds pretty good for euro lagers as is (pretty soft) - what should I be adding for UK beers (irish red for example)? Would my ales benefit from some salts? My efficiency?

Do I need a more indepth analysis?

:icon_cheers:

 

[BlueSky]

That water report doesn't seem to list the amount of Chloride nor Sulphate/Sulfate as far as I can see. From what I've been reading you'll need that data to be able to calculate your salt additions for a specific 'style' of water.

...what should I be adding for UK beers (irish red for example)?

Hmm, I would have thought a true Irish Red Ale would come from Eire (ROI) and probably/possibly Dublin, so the water profile for Guinness would be appropriate. Palmer mentions that here... 'Malts & Minerals'

Also, just to confuse the issue further , have a look at Graham Wheeler's on-line 'Liquor Treatment Calculator' >>HERE<<

 

[manticle]

Water profile for guiness today (soft and probably treated) or carbonate hard chalky crap that Palmer and BJCP talk about?

I wouldn't be using that chalk water for any of my beers and I think it's a bad* way to approach the subject (historical profiles etc) except as an introduction to what effects water has had on the evolution of brewing styles.

Blue sky is right though Nick - you need a chloride and sulphate level so see if you can get that from the company.

Ions you are mainly interested in are:

chloride
sulphate
Calcium
Carbonates (temporary hardness)
Magnesium
Zinc
Sodium

Also permanent hardness but only if the water is really hard.

Ions you are actually interested in adding are:
Calcium
Chloride
Sulphate
Zinc


Magnesium has a similar effect to calcium but less so and too much is very bad. Malt naturally contains magnesium, adequate levels as far as I understand. Some say carbonates for very dark beers. I avoid them but try them with and without and see for yourself. If your water has lots of carbonates or permanent hardness, you may need to work on dropping them out by RO filter etc. Temporary can be boiled out and precipitated but that's a bit of ******* around. A touch of sodium can work - too much is unpleasant and way too much can hurt/kill yeast.

Calcium for yeast health and enzyme activity.
Chloride for malt profile.
Sulphate for hop profile and bitterness.
Zinc for yeast health (usually a dose of wyeast yeast nutrient is probably enough)

I keep it simple and add calcium sulphate and calcium chloride - usually in equal amounts but ocassionally play if I really want to favour malt over hops or the other way. Some beers only chloride. I also add a teeny bit of phosphoric acid to some paler beers. Zinc I add in yeast nutrient form but you can buy zinc chloride and zinc sulphate I believe.
The other ions I am mainly interested in making sure the levels are low enough. Too much of anything is often worse than not enough.

For Irish red, I would add only calcium chloride to push a nice malty profile. Shouldn't need any acid with your darker, roastier malts but ez water calc or something will help you work that out.

PM me your email address. I may have a working document for you to peruse.

*Not in any way a personal attack on you Bluesky- water chem seems to always have a bit of controversy attached. I think the historical water profile idea pushed by BJCP and a bit by Palmer is arse about and fundamentally flawed. It's a complex subject but it can be made simple in practical brewing terms.

I'd like to add that just because I replied to this thread, doesn't bring me anywhere close to being a guru on it.

 

[MastersBrewery]

manticle, I'm only just starting to string a few AG brew together, I have previously read through a few threads here and elsewhere on the net on water profiles, at this stage just happy to hit my targets so this stuff is out of my league for a while. My question is how much of a difference does the profile make? I ask that question in the context of living in sydney where I believe the profile is reasonably soft, I like my Pale Ales and lagers? will I see significant improvements to my beers when I finally have the confidence with my brew routine to start looking down this path?

Mike

Edit: I gots to learn to type ....one day

 

[manticle]

To my palate it makes a discernible difference - both overdoing it and doing it right.

There are essentially three parts to water chemistry that all interact - mash pH and its effect on enzymatic behaviour, ions and their effect on flavour and enzymatic behaviour and water and its effect on mash pH (influenced by the ions within).

In terms of mash pH, using the right amount of calcium will see a possible increase in efficiency in my experience. It's not vast though - you won't jump from 55 to 90 just by adding calcium.

Water chemistry, if you don't have ridiculously hard water, is one of those things you might consider from a tweaking or fine tuning perspective. Obviously you can make beer and decent, good, even very good beer without fiddling. Likewise your beer won't go from being average to fantastic merely by adding in some gypsum.

Understanding how it works is the complex bit. Making soft water appropriate for the beer you are brewing is very easy. Essentially like adding a pinch of salt to a dish. You can make good food without salt but it undeniably adds something to the process in the cooking and the final resulting flavour. Too much stuffs it more than none will.

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

This article is handy and a good place to start, I think it was done by one of the Melbourne Brewers.


My beers have improved following this as a guide but I have also tasted the effects of too much of a good thing :icon_vomit:

View attachment key_20concepts_20in_20water_20treatment.pdf

 

[white.grant]

Yes you need a "water profile" which is a chemicla analysis of the water composition, as opposed to the "water quality analysis" which is a regimen of tests for specific pathogens and chemicals that may be found in the water a certain points in the supply.

Water profile will give you the salts/ph levels that you need to know about before you start drawing on your nomograph and calculating your additions.

 

[bum]

This article is handy and a good place to start, I think it was done by one of the Melbourne Brewers.

Thanks, hadn't seen that before. Good practical introductory article.

 

[Dazza88]

Manticore, and others, do you aim to remove chlorine chloramines from your tap water? What is your method? Did you post about this recently?

I wonder if removing these things is a primary concern with also the salts.

I have calium chloride and gypsum and use brewater 3.0 and available water reports to mainly provide sufficient calciumI just ordered a carbon filter for for my filter to do this for future brews.

 

[manticle]

Chloramines is an issue if you have them in your water and you will need something like an RO filter (charcoal filter may also work with that - need to check my notes)

However my water is chlorinated, not chloraminated so heat is enough to drive it off. Anything above 20 deg C will see Chlorine start to come out of solution. Hotter the solution is, the quicker it happens. I rely on strike temps and have no issues with chlorephenols (which I have tasted before - very distinctive).

As mentioned above - Tony Wheeler's article is a great summary and a link to it is included in the current wiki article on water/mash adjustment.

Slightly Melbourne centric as it was written for Melbourne brewers but really simplifies things down with good back up reference material. Read it once, leave it, then read it again. Helps engage with some of the slightly more tech based stuff if you get the gist of what's going on there too (and makes it all relevant to HB).

 

[1974Alby]

I rely on strike temps

Manticle,
does this mean you simply heat your mash water from tap temps to strike temps and are confident the chlorines are driven off in this time?...for me this takes about 30-45 minutes depending on ambient temp (37L for BIAB) but I hadn't considered that this would be suficient to dechlorinate my water...not that I can sense any chlorine flavours/aromas in my beer.

I actually reckon we have pretty awesome water on a global scale and expect our tap water can produce high quality beer of most varietys without the need for much/any adjustment. :beer:

 

[Dazza88]

Iirc Brisbane water has chloramine, anyone know for sure?

Edit: A quick google says yep, chloramine in Brisbane water. Interested to know what brassy brewers do for that, though I don't want to buy an ro filtration system atm.

And sry my autocorrect keeps spelling your name manticore.

 

[Florian]

Zinc I add in yeast nutrient form but you can buy zinc chloride and zinc sulphate I believe.

Slightly off topic, but if anyone is interested, I have a bit of Zinc Sulfate laying around which I purchased for non brewing purposes.

Happy to send out 1.6g to the first 10 or so people to pm me their address for nix incl. free postage.

Not being stingy with the stuff, but we worked out in another thread that 1.6g lasts for 100 single batches, so should be more than enough for most. Just dilute in 1L of (preferably R/O or distilled) water and add 10ml per brew 10 minutes to end of boil.

 

[manticle]

Iirc Brisbane water has chloramine, anyone know for sure?

Edit: A quick google says yep, chloramine in Brisbane water. Interested to know what brassy brewers do for that, though I don't want to buy an ro filtration system atm.

And sry my autocorrect keeps spelling your name manticore.

Metabisulphites/campden tablets will remove chloramines. Not sure in what quantities though.

 

[BlueSky]

Just for anybody interested... Dublin Water For Brewing Discussion c.2006 ...but who the feck knows where Guinness get their water from - River Liffey/council mains supply/own well - or how they may pre-treat it :blink:

*Not in any way a personal attack on you Bluesky- water chem seems to always have a bit of controversy attached. I think the historical water profile idea pushed by BJCP and a bit by Palmer is arse about and fundamentally flawed. It's a complex subject but it can be made simple in practical brewing terms.

Excellent post Manticle & no worries... I agree entirely. I've been reading up on Altbiers and the same 'argument' ensues about the specific water analysis there.

Just to stir the pot a little more anybody tried Bru'n Water ???

 

[Simon Buckle]

From the water quality report for caboolture from unitywater mean chloramine 0.7 mg/l,
Median 0.2 mg/l.

​

 

[BlueSky]

Metabisulphites/campden tablets will remove chloramines. Not sure in what quantities though.

This any help?...

EDIT:The usual recommendation of 1 campden tablet per 20 (US) gallons (~77.5l or 17 UK gallons) is intended to deal with a worst-case scenario of 3mg/l chlorine as chloramine. This would add 1.9mg/l of sodium; 3mg/l of chloride, 8mg/l of sulphate, 1.5mg/l ammonium ions and the alkalinity would be reduced by 4.2mg/l as calcium carbonate. If you consider that we normally boost calcium or chloride levels to 100-150mg/l, the extra 8mg/l sulphate or 3mg/l chloride is pretty insignificant. In most cases less metabisulphite will be required, which means some sulphur dioxide will be left over once the chlorine has been removed. Some will be driven off when the liquor is heated prior to mashing and sparging, and the rest will react with organics in the mash reducing them, and forming reductones, which are considered desirable as they help prevent oxidation and staling during storage.:EDIT

From here... JBK Thread ...usual long thread with a few gems of info on the first page (usually from Aleman)

 

[manticle]

Just to stir the pot a little more anybody tried Bru'n Water ???

Not tried it but looking at it linked me to here: https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

I've only skim read so far and it would be good to see some more in-text type referencing but the quality of info and the thorough and clearly laid out nature of the article looks really good at first glance.

 

[BlueSky]

Oops, apologies, that's just his 'Water Knowledge' page (which I had book-marked)... here's the front page... https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Another free Excel s/sheet for 'building' water but it seems to go a bit further (caveat: I haven't played with it yet).

 

[manticle]

No need to apologise - Your first link was right.

I was just saying that reading your first link led ME to the water knowledge page which I thought, without having fully read and digested, looks the goods.