Using Oxygen

[schooey]

Last week, I acquired a cylinder of medical grade oxygen... my interest in doing this was driven from having some comments from my beers about pitching rates, yeast health and things I had read concerning the same... Also from the time of ferments, attenuation issues... the list goes on

Anyways, I did an English Bitter yesterday... I bought a smack pack of WY1968 from MHB on Friday arvo and smacked it when I got home. Later Friday night I boiled 120g of LDME to make a 1.2L starter and put it in a water bath to cool... When it was around 19C, I gave it a 10 odd second shot of oxygen and I pitched the smack pack, that was already swollen (Manufacture date of 19/10/09.. How good is that? ) and put it on the stir plate

Next morning, yeast was going nuts at high krausen as I started brewing the beer. By the time I had it in the fermenter ready to pitch, you could see visible yeast clumps being agitated by the stir plate.. only 14 hours or so later? I turned the stir plate off and I had at least 100 ml of slurry in a 2L Erlenmeyer.

So I pitched it in the wort that I had given a 30 second shot of oxygen and 6 hours later when I was going to bed, I had a good krausen going. This morning it was all but climbing out of the fermenter...

So I have a few questions for seasoned oxygen users..

Is that kind of yeast growth normal in starters that have been oxygenated, or is it mainly to be attributed to the freshness of the pack?

Is there a negative to that quick of yeast growth?

How much oxygen do you put in your starters and your brews, and how do you measure it?

Cheers in advance,

Schooey

 

[mika]

20-30 second blast into the fermenter (20L). It's all a bit subjective. Without a DO meter, it's a real WAG.
Haven't yet oxygenated a starter, let the stirplate take care of that. Would be interesting with a lager yeast though.
Fast yeast growth in a starter isn't a bad thing. In fact, it's probably not an issue in a ferment as long as it doesn't generate too much temperature.

 

[newguy]

I oxygenate my starters too and I also give my fermenters 30 sec of pure O2. What you observed is normal given the oxygen. It's pretty much impossible to give your wort too much oxygen because if there is any extra left over once the yeast completes its growth phase, it will be scrubbed out with the CO2 that is produced once the yeast begins fermentation.

 

[reVoxAHB]

Last week, I acquired a cylinder of medical grade oxygen...

Where'd you score the oxygen, schooey?

 

[Screwtop]

I borrowed a DO meter and carried out some experiments (search should find it) a couple of years ago. Pretty normal behavior.

Until recently all of my brewing kit was stored in the garage at the new address, a few months ago I made a double batch of IPA using English washed 1098 slurry. When I went searching for my Oxygen equipment I could find the cylinder, the SS airstone and hoses but not the valve. I have a large chefs whisk about 500mm long and decided to use that to aerate. Opened the fridge and pulled out the front fermenter and gave the wort a good whisk, due to the tight space situation in the garage I skipped whisking the second fermenter at the back of the fridge, just didn't have room in front of the fermenting fridge to get the second fermenter out. Next day I checked and there was only a little indication that the yeast was working so I again gave the wort in the front fermenter a whisk. The aerated wort had a good krausen formed within 6 hours, the other did not form krausen until the following day. These beers, same recipe, same amount of the same yeast, fermented at the same time in the same fridge at the same temp finished 5 points apart. The one that had been whisked finished at 1.014 and the other at 1.019. This has been the first time I have been able to do a side by side comparison re aerated wort, certainly surprised me, the OG of this beer was 1.062. I will certainly aerate this yeast again as I have found it to be a little lazy previously and usually use a little sugar when brewing using it to increase attenuation.

Sorry went a little OT there.

Screwy

 

[Bribie G]

Where'd you score the oxygen, schooey?

He probably got it on Medicare for his emphysema h34r: I looked into oxygen when I went AG but the little 'party size' cylinders, connections, airstone etc were going to set me back about $70 for the full system, and the little cylinder didn't look like it would do many brews so I didn't proceed. However in shooey's case as he already has the system it will be interesting to see how he goes over a few more brews.

I bought an aquarium pump and airstone instead but have never used them. However as a result of comments made re this years National Comp where it was suggested that a lot of beers were clearly under attenuated and that this was probably a result of underpitching, I've decided to up my skills in preparing starters.

Hopefully schooey will bump thread occasionally and report results.

 

[schooey]

Where'd you score the oxygen, schooey?

My FIL has a pub, Revox, and he also has a bit of a construction bizzo on the side.. He has a BOC account with much much better discount than I could get....so I rented a 'D' through his account. The gas was $45 and I figure at 30 second shots, it'll last me a fair few brews. I already had the airstone from a previous venture into aeration with an aquarium pump, and my Dad had an Oxy guage lying around so I nabbed it.

 

[hockadays]

Hey Schooey,

I've used O2 and a stone on the last two brews. Both got 30secs into 23L and both ended up climbing out the fermenter. One was Wy1056 and the other Wy3068 both running at 20degc. Has made a noticable difference to me as I haven't had a brew climb out the top for some time especially at 20degc. As far as attenuation I'm yet to fully see the difference as the first batch brewed with 1056 finished a 1.016 from 1.052 but I mashed it by mistake at 69degc as my probe was reading wrong. The second is still fermenting but I'm not expecting to have any problems.

enjoy

 

[reVoxAHB]

the little 'party size' cylinders, connections, airstone etc were going to set me back about $70 for the full system,

$70 for a full setup, something I would use time and time again, sounds reasonable. noted on the 'party size' cylinders not lasting too long.. might look for a proper cylinder.

My FIL has a pub, Revox, and he also has a bit of a construction bizzo on the side.. He has a BOC account with much much better discount than I could get....so I rented a 'D' through his account. The gas was $45 and I figure at 30 second shots, it'll last me a fair few brews. I already had the airstone from a previous venture into aeration with an aquarium pump, and my Dad had an Oxy guage lying around so I nabbed it.

sweet. nice grabs. i think it's time to start putting together a system . will report back as i put the pieces together over the coming months.

i'm guessing it's a bit like C02 where if I purchased my own cylinder/oxy gauge I'd have issues finding someone to fill it with food grade oxy, etc. ?


Cheers
reVox

 

[Rabbitz]

Somethings to keep in mind when using oxygen and "an oxy gauge lying about". I do a bit of gas blending here and there and it scares me some of the gear that I have seen people use for O2.

Oxygen is refered to as the "princess of gases" as if you treat it right it can do wonderful things for you, mistreat it and it WILL slap you hard.

Any amount of hydrocarbon in an O2 circuit is asking for trouble, in fact any sort of foreign matter is a problem. I have seen a number of examples where a little bit of "foreign matter" and little bit of adiabatic compression has caused a flash which melted the brass fittings.... Very messy if you are too close.

So be careful and get the regulators serviced by O2 qualified people, using the right O rings and lubricants.

Oh and by the by, for those who have a set up, it looks like the Australian Standards are achangin'. All O2 cylinders will come equipped with the pin locator type valves, so this may need an upgrade of the regulator side of things. Not sure when this is to happen, just heard a whisper or two around the traps.

So by all means take advantage of the benefits of O2, just be aware it isn't a trivial thing when it is under pressure.

Rabz

 

[schooey]

Somethings to keep in mind when using oxygen and "an oxy gauge lying about". I do a bit of gas blending here and there and it scares me some of the gear that I have seen people use for O2.

Oxygen is refered to as the "princess of gases" as if you treat it right it can do wonderful things for you, mistreat it and it WILL slap you hard.

Any amount of hydrocarbon in an O2 circuit is asking for trouble, in fact any sort of foreign matter is a problem. I have seen a number of examples where a little bit of "foreign matter" and little bit of adiabatic compression has caused a flash which melted the brass fittings.... Very messy if you are too close.

So be careful and get the regulators serviced by O2 qualified people, using the right O rings and lubricants.

Oh and by the by, for those who have a set up, it looks like the Australian Standards are achangin'. All O2 cylinders will come equipped with the pin locator type valves, so this may need an upgrade of the regulator side of things. Not sure when this is to happen, just heard a whisper or two around the traps.

So by all means take advantage of the benefits of O2, just be aware it isn't a trivial thing when it is under pressure.

Rabz

All valid points, for sure... Maybe I used a bad turn of phrase there; The guage my Dad had was a Comet 3 Oxygen guage, stored in it's case. I certainly hope they don't change away from the bullnose fittings to the pin type, will be a PITA for sure..

 

[fitnessfan]

I've also heard about the changing standards to the pin type. I heard they will be brought in over the next year or so.

 

[schooey]

Ok.. so a little update. I've now done a half a dozen beers concentrating on my yeast health and aeration of the wort via oxygen. These are some observations I have mad;

- All of these beers have seen attenuation reach points very close to the upper figures quoted by the yeast manufacturer.
- All the yeasts have hit their straps quicker than I have previously experienced.
- Of the three beers that I have sampled, I have noticed the abscence of the flavours that had been highlighted to me as a product of yeast stress in previous beers.
- The starters I made for these beers, which were also oxygenated, seemed to experience better growth rates than my previous starters.

I should also say though, that out of these six beers, three of the yeasts were of October 2009 manufacture... and we all know fresh is best. I found with those three yeasts, a 1L starter was at high krausen and ready to pitch in 8 hours (WY 1084). One yeast (WY 9093) that I pitched into my beer sticky was Mar 09 manufacture and it was built into a 4L starter. From that, I decanted the wort and ended up with roughly a 125ml of pure slurry. That yeast was pitched into 10L of ~1.132 OG wort on Saturday night, and today is at 1.045 and it is still working quite well. I expect that it will hit it's 1.035-1.030 target without too much trouble at all.

So I guess what I'm saying is I am more than happy with the results. I don't think it can all be put down to the use of the oxygen, yeast health plays a more important part to the end game. But in saying that, I think oxygenating my starters and oxygenating my wort has played a pivotal part in maintaining the health of the yeast.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Ok.. so a little update. I've now done a half a dozen beers concentrating on my yeast health and aeration of the wort via oxygen. These are some observations I have mad;

- All of these beers have seen attenuation reach points very close to the upper figures quoted by the yeast manufacturer.
- All the yeasts have hit their straps quicker than I have previously experienced.
- Of the three beers that I have sampled, I have noticed the abscence of the flavours that had been highlighted to me as a product of yeast stress in previous beers.
- The starters I made for these beers, which were also oxygenated, seemed to experience better growth rates than my previous starters.

I should also say though, that out of these six beers, three of the yeasts were of October 2009 manufacture... and we all know fresh is best. I found with those three yeasts, a 1L starter was at high krausen and ready to pitch in 8 hours (WY 1084). One yeast (WY 9093) that I pitched into my beer sticky was Mar 09 manufacture and it was built into a 4L starter. From that, I decanted the wort and ended up with roughly a 125ml of pure slurry. That yeast was pitched into 10L of ~1.132 OG wort on Saturday night, and today is at 1.045 and it is still working quite well. I expect that it will hit it's 1.035-1.030 target without too much trouble at all.

So I guess what I'm saying is I am more than happy with the results. I don't think it can all be put down to the use of the oxygen, yeast health plays a more important part to the end game. But in saying that, I think oxygenating my starters and oxygenating my wort has played a pivotal part in maintaining the health of the yeast.

Im not surprise with your results because you are doing every thing right ! 1.132 down to 45 in a few days , excellent. Are you making rocket fuel ? I likie rocket fuel.
Gb

 

[schooey]

Are you making rocket fuel ? I likie rocket fuel.
Gb

Haha.. not quite, Nev. I'm frigging about with a dessert beer... I wanted a really thick and viscous mouthfeel, as well as sweetness and alcohol warmth. Thinking along the lines of a beer Noble 1.... if that makes sense. I'm not going to carbonate it, I'm going to fortify it, just not sure with what yet,,, maybe a good single malt, maybe a cognac or even just some nuetral spirit and some on a port and age it on oak. Very much outside the box and frigging about....

I'm pretty sure the concept may have even inspired the famous Butters quote in Clean Brewer's sig... :unsure:.. Ahh well, nothing ventured...

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Haha.. not quite, Nev. I'm frigging about with a dessert beer... I wanted a really thick and viscous mouthfeel, as well as sweetness and alcohol warmth. Thinking along the lines of a beer Noble 1.... if that makes sense. I'm not going to carbonate it, I'm going to fortify it, just not sure with what yet,,, maybe a good single malt, maybe a cognac or even just some nuetral spirit and some on a port and age it on oak. Very much outside the box and frigging about....

I'm pretty sure the concept may have even inspired the famous Butters quote in Clean Brewer's sig... :unsure:.. Ahh well, nothing ventured...

You could use the" Freeze it and remove the water trick". You find if you add Cognac etc it takes away from the beer profile (harsh dryness). I have sampled a few beers with fortification and I havent had one yet I would rave about. Hey its your experiment, go for it. But If you are going to wack this puppy have a go at Drambuie and send me a small taster. :icon_drool2:
GB

 

[manticle]

I'm going to fortify it, just not sure with what yet,,, maybe a good single malt,

Beautiful idea and I hope it's been represented in the concept beers thread.

Super interested to hear how it goes and maybe have a crack myself. My two favourite beverages in one.

 

[schooey]

Ok.. not to bore you folk to death with this thread, just adding a few more findings because some people have asked me to let them know what I think...



This is my latest starter, it's WY1010 American wheat for my Horny Heifer. This was started in 1lt of 1.035 wort that was given a 15 second shot of O2 and placed on a stir plate. It was pretty much fermented out in 14 hours and placed in the fridge to settle out. This morning I made 2lt more of 1.035 wort, gave a 20 second shot of O2 and pitched the slurry from the 1lt starter in it, after siphoning the spent wort from the top.

The sample in the pic has been on the stir plate now for 3 hours. I have never had a starter with a krausen like that. Still i can't put it all down to the O2 as I have never used this yeast before.. but pretty much everything else in my regime is as per I used to do before using the O2... So it definitely has contributed somewhat

 

[ausdb]

Ok.. not to bore you folk to death with this thread, just adding a few more findings because some people have asked me to let them know what I think...

View attachment 33851

This is my latest starter, it's WY1010 American wheat for my Horny Heifer. This was started in 1lt of 1.035 wort that was given a 15 second shot of O2 and placed on a stir plate. It was pretty much fermented out in 14 hours and placed in the fridge to settle out. This morning I made 2lt more of 1.035 wort, gave a 20 second shot of O2 and pitched the slurry from the 1lt starter in it, after siphoning the spent wort from the top.

The sample in the pic has been on the stir plate now for 3 hours. I have never had a starter with a krausen like that. Still i can't put it all down to the O2 as I have never used this yeast before.. but pretty much everything else in my regime is as per I used to do before using the O2... So it definitely has contributed somewhat

Schooey
In regard to your starters, do some reading/googling or whatever as both Wyeast and Whitelabs both recommend 2L as the first step when making a starter if you want to get any significant amount of cell growth happening. Anything less with a fresh yeast pack will just wake them up but wont increase your cell to count to any significant degree. Source of this information Dave Lodgson and Chris White, I went to talks by both of them when they visited Perth a few years ago and both gave the same answer.

As for the O I have a cylinder at home as part of my oxy welding setup, you can actually put too much in when I first started out I used to inline oxygenate for the entire wort transfer whilst chilling through a CFC for about 30 mins for 40L batches and found my beer would oxidise quickly so now I just hit it with a burst for 30secs.

 

[schooey]

Schooey
In regard to your starters, do some reading/googling or whatever as both Wyeast and Whitelabs both recommend 2L as the first step when making a starter if you want to get any significant amount of cell growth happening. Anything less with a fresh yeast pack will just wake them up but wont increase your cell to count to any significant degree. Source of this information Dave Lodgson and Chris White, I went to talks by both of them when they visited Perth a few years ago and both gave the same answer.

Hmmm, very interesting.... Thanks for the info,aus, I'll have to have a Google. I have been using the Mr Malty tool as a guide, and for a 23L batch of a bog standard ale type, it usually recommends somewhere between a 1.2L and 1,5L starter. So when building bigger starters for 50L batches, I have been using 1.2L as my first step. This will usually ferment fairly quickly, but it does give a decent amount of slurry and it fires up pretty quick in a 23L batch... but anyway, will do some more reading and give it a go.. Cheers :beer: