Using Malolactic Fermentation To Carbonate

[Tanga]

Hi,

I've played around a bit with cider using my oztops, and have come up with a recipe for a Bulmers clone. It's nothing tricky - just juice fermented to dryness. I will then pasturise and add more apple juice until I get the right sweetness (about 1:6 - but I'll taste and refine). At this point I plan to introduce a maltolactic bacteria to reduce the acidity and round out the flavours and mouthfeel. I have no access to kegs or a soda stream or anything, and would actually like to use the maltolactic bacteria for carbing the bottles. Does anyone know where I can get some data on how much carbon dioxide this reaction will produce (and how much I want it to produce)?

 

[Airgead]

Malolactic fermentation does produce co2 but not nearly as much as regular fermentation so it may not carb things up as much as you want it to. Give it a go and see how it works.

Cheers
Dave

 

[manticle]

Hi,

I've played around a bit with cider using my oztops, and have come up with a recipe for a Bulmers clone. It's nothing tricky - just juice fermented to dryness. I will then pasturise and add more apple juice until I get the right sweetness (about 1:6 - but I'll taste and refine). At this point I plan to introduce a maltolactic bacteria to reduce the acidity and round out the flavours and mouthfeel. I have no access to kegs or a soda stream or anything, and would actually like to use the maltolactic bacteria for carbing the bottles. Does anyone know where I can get some data on how much carbon dioxide this reaction will produce (and how much I want it to produce)?

You're going to ferment the juice right out and then pasteurise? Why the pasteurisation if there's no residual sugars left? Are you worried about micro-organisms and spoilage?

You are then adding fresh juice and therefore more sugar - thus more CO2 which will add to carbonation unless you let that ferment out too (defeating the purpose of adding it).

Sorry if I've missed something but it doesn't add up the way you've outlined it.

 

[brettprevans]

its just occured to me. if you just wanted acid/lactic (I know you dont, you want carb also) you could just use lactic acid. you can buy it from sponsors. gives you theacid/latic without needing to ferment.

another point. if you fully ferment out, there sint going to be a lot left for the lactic to chew on, thus it wont grow (or struggle to) and thus produce less acid and less CO2 than normal.

the last funk beer i did (an oud bruin), I left adding the roselare yest too late and its struggled to grow and creat as much funk and lactic as I wanted. I fear you'll have the same (or greater) issues if you try to 'fully ferment out' first

 

[Airgead]

its just occured to me. if you just wanted acid/lactic (I know you dont, you want carb also) you could just use lactic acid. you can buy it from sponsors. gives you theacid/latic without needing to ferment.

another point. if you fully ferment out, there sint going to be a lot left for the lactic to chew on, thus it wont grow (or struggle to) and thus produce less acid and less CO2 than normal.

the last funk beer i did (an oud bruin), I left adding the roselare yest too late and its struggled to grow and creat as much funk and lactic as I wanted. I fear you'll have the same (or greater) issues if you try to 'fully ferment out' first

CM2 - Malocalcic is different to a regular lactic fermentation like you would use in a funk beer. Its a special bacterial that ferments malic acid into lactic with a small amount of co2 as a byproduct (rather than sugar into alcohol with lactic and co2 as a byproduct like you get in a funk beer). Its a winemaking thing. Apple juice has plenty of malic acid so the malolactic bacteria will have plenty to work with. In a wine it actually de-acidifies the flavour as lactic acid is a softer acid than malic.

Cheers
Dave

 

[brettprevans]

CM2 - Malocalcic is different to a regular lactic fermentation like you would use in a funk beer. Its a special bacterial that ferments malic acid into lactic with a small amount of co2 as a byproduct. Its a winemaking thing. Apple juice has plenty of malic acid so the malolactic bacteria will have plenty to work with. In a wine it actually de-acidifies the flavour as lactic acid is a softer acid than malic.

Cheers
Dave

hmm thanks for clarifying. i thought i migfht have gotten mixed up after i posted.

apols and ignore my post then.

although its an interesting idea to use both malolactic and lactic in a beer for a double hit?

 

[Tanga]

So no risk of bottle bombs then if I do it (add the malolactic bacterial culture) just before bottling Airgead? I'll be bottling in plastic anyway, but I'm staying with my folks at the moment and after my first mead attempt my Dad's pretty down on bottle bombs =).

Manticle I'm pasteurising because I don't want the yeast to ferment the apple juice I add. I want this to remain a sweetish (bulmers clone remember) cider. Like Airgead said Malolactic fermentation doesn't produce alcohol from sugars, but rather lactic acid (soft) from the malic acid (hard) in the brew and thus reduces the acidity. From the smooth and rounded taste and mouthfeel of Bulmers I'd be willing to lay money on the fact that they do this (though they probably sterilise everything, including the malolactic fermentation and force carb), but I can't do that.

 

[manticle]

If you do what just before? pasteurisation, malolactic or adding juice?

I'm not following your intended process. I think if you work it out it can be done but something is unclear.

 

[Tanga]

Edited - the order is:

1. brew to dryness
2. pasteurise and allow to cool (to about 30 degrees)
3. add juice to desired sweetness (already pasteurised, so no worries there)
4. add malolactic bacterial culture
5. bottle

The last 4 can all be done one after the other (in an afternoon or morning). At least that's my understanding.

 

[manticle]

I'm with you now - pasteurise to stop yeast action. 30 degrees probably won't be high enough though.

My stupidity though in missing the reason for the pasteurisation. Breakfast wasn't big enough.

The homebrewtalk forum has a fair bit of cider discussion going on - I'd think it's worth asking there too.

 

[Tanga]

I'm pretty sure it's 70 (will check before doing) - I meant cool to 30 (malolactic bacteria likes a range between 20 and 30). Hopefully makes sense now.

So.... anyone got the figures (or knows where I can get them) for how much carbon dioxide the malolactic reaction produces? Or even how much the carbing reaction produces so I have something to compare it to?

 

[manticle]

This is just from me googling because I'm interested, not because I have experience of it.

There is a formula on this page - you need to know how much malic acid is being converted though: http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/MLF/MLF.htm

Also brief reading suggests that a traditional way of carbonating some sparkling wines like rose uses malolactic fermentation in closed environment: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=9En27z...ume&f=false

No actual data but if you've ever had very light sparkling wine it might give you an indication of what to expect.

I guess the reason I was confused about the pasteurisation thing is that usual process for people with pasteurising homemade cider is to bottle around the taste level they want, check the cider regularly for desired levels of carbonation then pasteurise whereas you're doing it the other way round - presumably the extra apple juice will help the malolactic fermentation?

My comprehension skills seem to have taken a turn for the worse since I turned 35.

 

[Tanga]

The acidity in apple juice is due to malic acid. That acid will remain, unchanged in the wine. So I guess the juice will add a little of the acid, but the lions share will be from the wine. It's pretty acidic. So is the juice, but the sweetness balances it out. This will be less sweet (though still a little sweet) so I need to lower the acidity (by turning the malic acid into lactic acid) to get a balanced drink.

Does this make sense now? It's helping me get it all sorted in my head at least. =)

 

[manticle]

In that case could you try getting the original fermenting cider to the sweetness level you want (or just before), then allow a week to carb a bit, then pasteurise (cutting out an extra step) then do the malolactic fermentation in closed vessel?

 

[Tanga]

I could I guess - but adding the culture to the individual bottles is unappealing. As is pasteurising a pressurised bottle. Doesn't that kind of thing lead to asplosions?

 

[manticle]

Pasteurising bottles is something I've never done and wouldn't recommend it on that basis.

Apparently though people do it with success. SUICider wrote a thread on it somewhere here and there is an instructional sticky on homebrewtalk in the cider section.

I did assume you were bottle pasteuring though. How are you intending to do it in large volume?

Sorry for all the questions and misunderstandings - just interested.

 

[drsmurto]

Malolactic fermentation is the conversion of malic acid to lactic acid and given it's a decarboxylation, CO2 is indeed generated. You know this or you wouldn't have posed the question.

To prevent bottle bombs when carbonating any beverage via the fermentation of sugar you need to know how much sugar you are adding.

So how much malic acid is there in your juice/cider creation?

Without knowing the answer to the question you are guessing.

Best case scenario you end up with flat cider.

Worst case, bottle bombs.

Are you feeling lucky?

If you do know how much malic acid is in your juice/cider then 1 mole of CO2 is generated per mole of malic acid.

I'll leave it to you to convert moles of CO2 to volumes of CO2.

Cheers
DrSmurto

p.s. how does a CO2 atmosphere affect malo bacteria? Have you done your research to work out whether they like working under pressure?

 

[Tanga]

The bottles won't be under that much pressure, and an anaerobic (co2) rich environment is a good thing.

As for bottle bombs, I think it's probably doubtful. Wine makers always talk about accidental malolactic fermentation as if it's a good thing - which I doubt they'd do if it caused their bottles to explode. So flat cider is probably the most likely outcome - though I'll be bottling in PET just in case =). If worse comes to worse and they're flat I can still add yeast to bottles and sit until firm then refrigerate.

Bloody hell - mols. I haven't done any of that since year 12 chem - a while ago now. That should work though. Here we are:
http://www.kfl.com/oa.html

I'll take the centre of the curve - 0.45 g malic acid / 100g of apple juice
Molecular weight of Malic Acid = 134.09
Number of Moles = Mass / Molecular Weight
Number of Moles of Malic Acid = 0.45g / 134.09 = 0.0033559549556268178089342978596465 / 100 g Apple Juice
In each bottle I'll have roughly 560 g of Juice (I'll be bottling in 600 ml bottles and the density of Apple Juice = 1.043739 g/ml @ 20C D = M/V)

So in each bottle there will be 0.01879334775151017973003206801402 moles of malic acid, and thus the same number of moles of carbon dioxide formed.

Molecular weight of Carbon Dioxide = 44.01
Mass = Molecular Weight x Number of Moles
Mass = 44.01 x 0.01879334775151017973003206801402 = 0.83 g (rounded up) of CO2 in my 600 mL bottle, or 0.15 g / 100 mL.


Whew *wipes forhead*

So there is going to be around (give or take) 0.15 g of CO2 / 100 mL of cider.

A 454mL bottle of pepsi contains 2.2 g of CO2 - so 0.48 g of CO2 / 100 mL

Thus my cider will be (give or take) around about 1/3 as fizzy as pepsi. I think I can probably live with that, though it will be undercarbonated it definitely won't blow up the PET bottles, even if the juice I have has higher than average amounts of malic acid.

Bloody hell that hurt. Thanks for the lead in Smurto. Though it would have been nice if the data were already there. I guess I've learnt a lot. I should have worked out the last bit by calculating sugar > co2 in the same way I did for the first one, but I only had one mol calculation in me today, and I had to look up the formulas to do it:
http://www.ausetute.com.au/massmole.html

Thank god it had examples otherwise I never would have gotten there.

 

[Tanga]

Now this is interesting.

Oenococcus oeni, a desirable strain, may also metabolise glucose to produce carbon dioxide, lactic acid, acetic acid and ethanol (it follows the heterolactic pathway (6-PG/PK pathway)) [Garvie, 1986; Axelsson, 1993; Henick-Kling, 1993] but will degrade malic acid before degrading any glucose present under non-growing conditions.

Though it will add acidity (and vinegar), which I don't want. Something to experiment with though. It may be little enough that it's doable for that extra little bit of fizz.

Oh, here:

Thus, when a high population MLB culture is inoculated into a wine there is less growth, and therefore, a considerably lower production of acetic acid.

So inoculate with a high population of MLB.