Tinseth hop calculations and whirlpool

[DazGore]

Hi, if you are having a 10 min whirlpool hop addition, would you in theory add 10 mins to each hop additions utilisation (Tinseth formula), as effectively the hops are in contact with wort for an extra 10 mins before cooling?

Eg, the 60 min addition adds 70 mins worth of ibu's with the 10 min hop stand/ whirlpool.

Thanks
Daz

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Pretty sure Brewers Friend calculates the steep at flameout, then again it will depend how quickly the wort cools.

 

[MHB]

Easy enough to think so, but not quite. Alpha Acids will isomerise slower at the temperature falls, under about 80oC its very slow.
Some of the factors play a role in the rate of isomerisation, mainly -
Temperature (as above)
Motion, Vigor - physical agitation caused by motion in the boil increases the rate.
Alpha Acid concentration - the less Alpha Acid the higher the amount isomerises. Conversely as you add more the rate falls.
pH - you get higher isomerisation at higher pH's, the pH fall during the boil so its slowest at the end.
How hops are prepared - Flowers give less than pellets, give less than concentrated pellets/powders, than extracts...
As the wort gravity increases - utilisation falls, so its worst late in the boil when gravity is lowest

Frankly predictive software is not all that accurate and the process is very complex so I doubt we can really predict IBU within 5 (either side), if you use a 60 or 70 minute addition for your calculation I doubt it will matter much.
Just keep good records and decide which gets you closest to the beer you want to drink.
Mark

This is a good read The HBD Palexperiment Results
M

 

[philrob]

Yeah, Mark is correct.
You really need to keep records of your own outcomes to determine what works for you.
I use BS2 and have it set on Tinseth. I generally used to brew at the top or over BS2 calculations, and I still didn't get the bitterness I wanted. No problem with the flavour. but it just doesn't have that final bite I'm looking for.
Really, I need to set my recipes to be about 20 to 30% over what BS2 suggests.

 

[DazGore]

Easy enough to think so, but not quite. Alpha Acids will isomerise slower at the temperature falls, under about 80oC its very slow.
Some of the factors play a role in the rate of isomerisation, mainly -
Temperature (as above)
Motion, Vigor - physical agitation caused by motion in the boil increases the rate.
Alpha Acid concentration - the less Alpha Acid the higher the amount isomerises. Conversely as you add more the rate falls.
pH - you get higher isomerisation at higher pH's, the pH fall during the boil so its slowest at the end.
How hops are prepared - Flowers give less than pellets, give less than concentrated pellets/powders, than extracts...
As the wort gravity increases - utilisation falls, so its worst late in the boil when gravity is lowest

Frankly predictive software is not all that accurate and the process is very complex so I doubt we can really predict IBU within 5 (either side), if you use a 60 or 70 minute addition for your calculation I doubt it will matter much.
Just keep good records and decide which gets you closest to the beer you want to drink.
Mark

This is a good read The HBD Palexperiment Results
M

Thanks Mark

 

[DazGore]

Thanks, I have my own spreadsheet instead of beersmith etc.., so was trying to overcome this problem.
At the moment I am treating FWH as a 60 min addition plus 10%

 

[Jaded and Bitter]

Hi, if you are having a 10 min whirlpool hop addition, would you in theory add 10 mins to each hop additions utilisation (Tinseth formula), as effectively the hops are in contact with wort for an extra 10 mins before cooling?

Eg, the 60 min addition adds 70 mins worth of ibu's with the 10 min hop stand/ whirlpool.

Thanks
Daz

As long as your not cooling it during the steep and the wert is above 80 deg, yes add the extra 10 minutes. Although it makes bugger all difference 60 to 70 minutes.

 

[Jaded and Bitter]

Frankly predictive software is not all that accurate and the process is very complex so I doubt we can really predict IBU within 5 (either side), if you use a 60 or 70 minute addition for your calculation I doubt it will matter much.
Just keep good records and decide which gets you closest to the beer you want to drink.
Mark

This is a good read The HBD Palexperiment Results
M

However, x1000 what mark said. Keep notes esp as you drink it. Even just uncertainties and queries???

I had a query I was able to track back through about 3 or 4 brews (not consecutive) and get a handle on a possible issue/solution. Through my notes, starters, brewday, ferm, drinking notes.

OT my situation but wrt bitterness notes will guide you best.

 

[DazGore]

Thanks all, I keep good records, so will dial it in over a few batches