Thirty Degree Rule

[donburke]

i have read about the 30 degree rule, used to ferment weizens, i.e. pitch at 13 and ferment at 17

i have also read that underpitching can also create the esters akin to a weizen

if i am to apply the 30 degree rule, do i still make an appropriate sized starter ?

do i chill both wort and starter to 13 to pitch or just chill the wort and not the starter ?

what is the preferred method to get a result true to style ?

 

[Tim F]

That stuff always sounds like mumbo jumbo to me. For a weizen I just pitch the smack pack as is at 17 or 18 and ferment at the same temp. Seems to work :icon_cheers:

 

[ashley_leask]

That stuff always sounds like mumbo jumbo to me. For a weizen I just pitch the smack pack as is at 17 or 18 and ferment at the same temp. Seems to work :icon_cheers:

Depends on the balance you want to get between the esters and the phenolics. I've done 18 with 3068 and it's slanted mostly to the phenolics. If you want more banana I think 20-21 would do it.

 

[Dave70]

Did you read this in Designing great beers?

 

[donburke]

Did you read this in Designing great beers?

no, i read a few different posts on this forum

i made my wort, and from my readings, the ferulic acid rest @ 42 degrees for 20 mins is important to give me those precursors for the phenolics i am after

i have my cubes ready to ferment, that were mashed 42/63/72

i am looking to either just pitch the smack pack as is, and according to mrmalty this is underpitching

or make a starter and pitch it cold (13) and let it warm (17) for fermentation

unsure which road to take

 

[aaronpetersen]

I have just done an experiment with the 3068 yeast in a hefeweizen. I split the batch into 4 fermenters.
Ferm 1: 100% recommended pitch rate from MrMalty, ferment at 17 deg
Ferm 2: 60% recommended pitch rate, ferment at 17 deg
Ferm 3: 100% recommended pitch rate, ferment at 22 deg
Ferm 4: 60% recommended pitch rate, ferment at 22 deg

The wort was aerated as little as possible as I have been told that an oxygenated wort favours phenolics and I like my weizens with lots of banana esters.
Fermenting at 17 deg gave a nice mix of esters and phenolics, whereas the phenolics were absent when fermented at 22 deg and the esters were overpowering. The lower pitch rate gave a slight increase in esters regardless of ferment temp.
My next experiment will be to compare aerated vs non-aerated wort to see if that makes a difference.

Edit: the yeast was pitched at a wort temp of 17 deg and I didn't do a ferulic acid rest.

 

[donburke]

I have just done an experiment with the 3068 yeast in a hefeweizen. I split the batch into 4 fermenters.
Ferm 1: 100% recommended pitch rate from MrMalty, ferment at 17 deg
Ferm 2: 60% recommended pitch rate, ferment at 17 deg
Ferm 3: 100% recommended pitch rate, ferment at 22 deg
Ferm 4: 60% recommended pitch rate, ferment at 22 deg

The wort was aerated as little as possible as I have been told that an oxygenated wort favours phenolics and I like my weizens with lots of banana esters.
Fermenting at 17 deg gave a nice mix of esters and phenolics, whereas the phenolics were absent when fermented at 22 deg and the esters were overpowering. The lower pitch rate gave a slight increase in esters regardless of ferment temp.
My next experiment will be to compare aerated vs non-aerated wort to see if that makes a difference.

Edit: the yeast was pitched at a wort temp of 17 deg and I didn't do a ferulic acid rest.

aaronp, this is good information,

did you use a ferulic acid rest when mashing ?

what temp did you pitch these ?

 

[donburke]

aaronp, this is good information,

did you use a ferulic acid rest when mashing ?

what temp did you pitch these ?

ha ha your edit answered the exact questions i just typed ....

you must have mental telepathy

 

[ashley_leask]

I have just done an experiment with the 3068 yeast in a hefeweizen. I split the batch into 4 fermenters.
Ferm 1: 100% recommended pitch rate from MrMalty, ferment at 17 deg
Ferm 2: 60% recommended pitch rate, ferment at 17 deg
Ferm 3: 100% recommended pitch rate, ferment at 22 deg
Ferm 4: 60% recommended pitch rate, ferment at 22 deg

The wort was aerated as little as possible as I have been told that an oxygenated wort favours phenolics and I like my weizens with lots of banana esters.
Fermenting at 17 deg gave a nice mix of esters and phenolics, whereas the phenolics were absent when fermented at 22 deg and the esters were overpowering. The lower pitch rate gave a slight increase in esters regardless of ferment temp.
My next experiment will be to compare aerated vs non-aerated wort to see if that makes a difference.

Edit: the yeast was pitched at a wort temp of 17 deg and I didn't do a ferulic acid rest.

Interested in this as well. When you're underpitching you're relying on a higher than normal rate of growth which will emphasise ester production, but without adequate oxygen levels, the desired rate of growth might not be achieved. I'd be interested in seeing the results of a comparison been oyxgenated and non oxygenated wort at the lower pitching rate.

Was there any difference in attenuation between the 100% and 60% pitching rate beers?

 

[indeecent]

30 degree rule I read in "Class beer style series #7: German Wheat Beer, Eric Warner" From memory he was a graduate from weihenstephan as a brewmaster... It recommends 12 degree pitch with 18 ferment

 

[aaronpetersen]

Interested in this as well. When you're underpitching you're relying on a higher than normal rate of growth which will emphasise ester production, but without adequate oxygen levels, the desired rate of growth might not be achieved. I'd be interested in seeing the results of a comparison been oyxgenated and non oxygenated wort at the lower pitching rate.

Was there any difference in attenuation between the 100% and 60% pitching rate beers?

Nope, all beers went from 1050 down to 1011, although the time taken to ferment out varied from 10 days for ferm 3 to 4 weeks for ferm 2.

 

[MHB]

Im a big fan of banana in wheat beers, following on from a post here on AHB (that I cant find sorry) that highlighted the importance of Glucose in the formation of banana flavour (isoamyl acetate); a very complex decoction mash regimen is described. Obviously those of us not working under the Reinheitsgebot can just add a bit of Dextrose to achieve the target

This is a reworked version of the original paper: - Brewing a Wheat Beer with Intensive Banana Aroma
Well worth a read for anyone who wants more control over the outcome of their wheat beers.
MHB

 

[goldstar]

That's a great little article thanks Mark - especially as I'm brewing a wheat beer over the weekend.

Cheers!