The Next Steps (suggestions?)

[chappo1970]

G'Day All,
Been lurking around this site for sometime now and have been grateful (learnt something) and impressed by all contributing to this forum. Yes I finally got the guts to ask a question.

1st a bit of back ground to understand were I am coming from. I started out 6 months ago HB'ing with my Father as something we could do together and keep a common interest over and above the kids and life in general. We really loved it from the "get go" and there is no way known we are going back to the Megaswill, even the occasional K&K brew with the dredded twang is no deterent. In fact we often say on brew day "why hadn't we started doing this 20 years ago?".

Anyway we are up to about our 12th K&K brew, yes have we tried to match the tasteless commercial garbage (THE SHAME OF IT ALL! so flame me if you must ), done some good and not so good brews, but we are improving with simple things such BE1, BE2, temperature control via a Tempmate for the fermentation fridge (Old Boy donated his beer fridge to the cause), secondary fermentation cubes, taking lots of notes and using better non kit yeasts. No dry hopping or that kind of stuff yet, still unsure of that stuff and how it works. I read alot of brew sites and stuff but that whole IBU bitterness aroma thing I have little appreciation as I couldn't tell you the difference between 23 IBU and 52 IBU except the later is more bitter. Maybe I need someone to educate my palate :chug: ? We are however going down the road to kegging by the end of Feb.

However I find myself wanting to go the next step and try a K& Bits, Fresh Wort kit, perhaps extract and or partial then going to full on AG. My father and I really need little encouragement to get down to the LHBS. I know some members on here have gone straight to AG after a few brews but I am a bit cautious and want to take baby steps and learn the craft well. Plus I need to convince Dad AG is not as bad as the stuff my Grandfather used to brew in a garbage can (old school beaten up galvanised tin job) lined with a plastic bag in his farm machinery shed (I can still taste that stuff now 20 years down the track :icon_vomit: ).

So what would you suggest as the next step or steps as building blocks to the eventual AG outcome or the Dark side as some would put it? Also the equipment required to take that step/s? I know this has been asked a billion times before on this forum but I would appreciate any input and or experiences you might offer. Also cost of stuff isn't as important as the learning and or appreciation. Don't get me wrong money is king and we don't have mega dollars to throw away but more Dad and I go 1/3 a 2/3 on equipment, well he is a pensioner and likes to contribute what he can when he can kind of thing so when buying stuff that helps not having to cough up the whole lot. Thanking you in advance! Chappo.

 

[Fatgodzilla]

G'Day All,

I got a mate called Chappo down here in Tuross and he asks dumb questions too :icon_cheers:
Just kidding. Welcome to AHB and the land of the beerbrewers.

I doubt anyone can really answer your questions properly cos there are a lot of right answers and a lot of blokes here who will say a lot of right things. Ignore the others.

So without knowing where Bethania is, I reckon there will be some AG brewers within cooee of you. Ask them for a geek on a brew day - Visit them, see what they have got. In my opinion one visit to a good AG brewer is worth one hundred answers on AHB. Look, learn ask questions, you learn heaps when you see someone brew.

So where the f is Bethania ?

 

[buttersd70]

Chappo,
the next step, which is a bit of a baby step, really, is to go to all malt with your kit, by replacing the BE1/BE2 etc with just malt, either dry or liquid. Knowing what the be1/be2 contains, and how that contributes to flavour, will help. Most of the booster packs, brew enhancers etc contain a combination of dextrose and maltodextrin, and in some cases malt, in varying proportions. BE1 is 600g dextrose/400g maltodextrin. BE2 is 500g dextrose, 250g maltodextrin, and 250g malt.

Dextrose ferments fully, leaves no residual flavour or sweetness. It only contributes alcohol. It reduces body.
Maltodextrin is basically unfermentable...so it remains after fermentation, adding body. But it adds no flavour or residual sweetness. It is basically only added to counteract the reduction in body that dextrose causes.
Malt is fermentable, but not fully. So it adds alcohol, but the unfermented portion leaves some residual sweetness, and body.

So, as an example, you have a particular kit that you like with when it's done with BE2. The basic flavour, and the bitterness level of it, is where you want it. If you replace the BE2 with all malt, you will get lots more malt flavour. The body will improve, because without the body-recucing dextrose, you don't need the body contributed by the maltodextrin. The one issue it will cause is the additional residual sweetness....if the tin had the right level of bitterness with only 250g of malt (from the BE2) in it, it will now be too sweet....so you will need to balance that by introducing some bitterness. So you boil some hops. The added bonus being that this will also introduce more hop flavour, as well as that required bitterness.....

So, the easy no nonsense way about this is to take 300g of your 1kg of dry malt. Add this to 3L of water in a pot, and bring to the boil. Then add hops and boil for 15 minutes. The type of hop depends on what type of beer you are making; and the amount of hops depends on what type of hops...some produce more bitterness than others. But in either case, a post on here will give you an indication of what hop to use, and how much to use. But you're usually looking at somewhere between 15-30g.

Thats it in a nutshell....you can get into working out IBU's, balance values and a whole heap of other jazz if thats what you want to do... But the basics of it remains the same.

The one thing that I would say to get slightly techie with from the start is to make sure the hops you get have a known Alpha Acid value, which will be expressed as a percentage. Some hbs ( <_< ) have a percentage range, instead of a specific number....even if you don't know how to use that alpha rating (to start with), if you post on here 'how much should I use', one of the first questions you're likely to be asked in response is "what's the alpha?"

From there, you would start steeping grains as well. Then on to all extract + specialty grain brewing, then AG.....

Edit...fully agree that it's best to get to gether with a more experienced brewer....

 

[Bribie G]

Welcome to the forum, and a great walk through from Butters.

If you want to take baby steps, and seeing as you are in SEQ then a really good step up is to go to a slightly better kit and experiment with some hops. A good recipe that I found hit the spot for a good cold lawnmowing ale ... A tin of Morgans Queensland Bitter, kilo of Brew Enhancer 2 and a hop 'teabag' of Cluster hops.

Then for a next brew try improving the 'enhancer' part of the recipe by using say 750g of light dried malt extract and 250g of dextrose, and the teabag, and see what difference that makes.

If you like the extra hoppyness then you can actually get those hop pellets far cheaper in the 90g shrink pack from CraftBrewer who are at Logan up the hwy.

Another really significant improvement is to use a better yeast than the one under the lid on the tin. Good dried packeted yeasts to try are US-05, Safale S-04 or Nottingham ale yeast - all available from Craftbrewer as well.

It's great that you have a temp controlled beer fridge in the current summer weather, as these yeasts work great at under 20 degrees. They give a much cleaner and less 'twangy' beer than the kit yeasts. The kit yeasts are meant to be 'forgiving' and can brew up into the high 20s to cope with the worst insults that amateur brewers can throw at them, but it's swings and roundabouts and budding professionals like yourselves are better off without them.

Although you pay upfront for the better yeasts they can be 'bred up' and used over several brews, and that brings the cost right down.

Sounds like you guys are on the right track.

Cheers

Michael

 

[Gavo]

So what would you suggest as the next step or steps as building blocks to the eventual AG outcome or the Dark side as some would put it? Also the equipment required to take that step/s?

The next steps have been covered really well already here, and are quite simple ie. using all malt and boiling hops. From there take the steps as you feel comfortable with and keep reading the input on AHB community. What equipment is needed? Well to use all malt, no extra really, just a saucepan to boil and dissolve LDME in if that is the type of malt you use. To boil hops, once again a saucepan. If you are going out to buy a pot for the job, a cheap 12 litre job will do fine and you can get these for around twenty dollars. Try Crazy CLarks before they close down. A twelve litre job will hold you for steeping grain to doing partails. You can make do with whatever gear you already have ATM. Other invaluable pieces if you havn't got them yet are a good thermometer and a good measuring jug.

I started brewing seven months ago after a three year gap and have gone from kits - Extract - Partials + 1 AG since then and will not look back. The journey is worth it and fun along the way.

Cheers
Gavo.

Edit: Check out Craftbrewer, they are only 20 min drive from you.

 

[chappo1970]

Thanks guys for your replies and encouragement! I know it was a noob question and kinda "how long is a bit of string"? But thanks.

Fatgodzilla: Right back at ya mate! Where the f is Tuross? Bethania is around Beenleigh SEQ near enough to where Craftbrewer has his stall. Actually born in Wagga and family used to holiday at Tuross Heads so I guess near there?

Butters there is no doubting that you are very very wise indeed and you have nailed it on the head for me. I am going to give your advice a go on my next brews. What throws me with the hopping is not knowing what hop type does what, where, how much for how long? I read the guides but they just go right over my head. What would be a good middle of the road hop to try experimenting with? I guess I will just have to do some experimentation with some different hops etc and discover what my palate likes and dislikes? My hesitation comes from ignorance I reckon, too many years thinking Megaswill, namely Tooheys New, was a brilliant beer and thats what beer should tastes like. Now however the K&K (as poor as I'm told they are) have opened things up to me and I find I like different stuff where 6 months ago I would never have tried them.

BribieG you must have esp mate. I have just put on 2 brews and one is a Morgans Qld Bitter (1st 1 I have tried) and the other is a Black Rock EIPA. The Qld Bitter has 1kg BE2, 250gr LDME, S-04 at 20 deg. The Pale Ale has 1kg BE2, S-04 at 20 deg. I am going to rack these to a secondary after 3 days of stable FG's, crash chill to 4 deg for 24hrs, fine for 48 to 72 and bottle.

Guys I was wonder if I could late dry hop one of these at the secondary as an experiment? I have brewed the EIPA before and still has some bottles lurking around so I could use it as a bench mark to educate my palate to the difference. Or should I do some hopping and all malt with my next brews?

Cheers! Chappo

By the way I would be very interested to help and see an AG brew day. So what would be the best way to go about finding someone willing for me to bumble around, slow them down and get in the way on their brew day? Should I post something up on the forums to start?

 

[Jase71]

Go all-liquid malt extracts, and hop boil yoursef. Not much extra money really, and no extra gear needed if you're not ready to go AG.
With extracts you can really control the hop flavours, as well as take control of the type of malts used. Add to that a bit of steeped grain, that's cheap as chips (ie under $2 a brew), and you've left kits forever.

Welcome aboard, plenty to pick up here.

 

[Bribie G]

Re late hopping, yes if I am going to dry hop in the fermenter I put in 10 to 20 g of hop pellets after three or four days when the krausen has settled down, just quickly tip them into the fermenter and forget about them, they will disintegrate and disperse around the brew and eventually the material will sink to the bottom. My K&K brewing mate around the corner just buys a hop teabag (Cluster is a good one to use with Morgans QLD bitter), cuts it open and pours the pellets in, he reckons the pellets are better quality than the bulk ones, I don't agree personally but as you are trying things out it's a good way of experimenting without buying a whole 90 g of hops.

 

[chappo1970]

Thanks Jase I was thinking going that way after I dispense of the last two cans of goop I got from Santa.

:icon_offtopic: Any sugestions for a Cascade Imperial Pale Ale and or a Cascade Golden Harvest Lager?

Ok Mr BribieG I going to give it a red hot go. Thanks for the advice. It's day 4 today and when I checked on my bubbling babies this morning the EIPA krausen was settling down from the night before. Gavity was at 1024 at 20 deg. I can grab some Cluster hops on the way home tonight from Craftbrewer. I can freeze what I don't use I guess? I am not sure on the tea bag things sounds ify?

So should I still rack to secondary as planned or let it go all the way thru from the primary now I am spicing things up a little?

 

[boingk]

Did somone say 'Golden Harvest Lager'?

This might all sound like somethiong out of an alien world, but stick with it; you won't regret it. Kits and bits comes down to a few main concepts. Adding more (and different kinds of) malt to the kit will change its style, depending on what you add and in what combinations. Adding hops to compensate for the extra malt is easy - a 15 to 20 minute boil of 10-20g of hops will bring up the bitterness enough to counteract the extra malt. This will also impart flavour to the brew. Yeasts you have tried - perhaps try a culture out of a stubbie to obtain some different styles?

Adding grains is another process in itself. Use around a litre of water for every 250g of grains, bring up to 65'C on the stove and then maintain for an hour. Strain the liquid into another pan and bring to the boil, discard the grains. You may use this liquid to boil your hops in to save time. After the boil, dump the lot into your waiting fermenter and give an almighty swirl to help dissolve the other ingredients you've pout in there already.

Using these proceedures above, I used the Golden Harvest kit, 1.5kg of liquid amber malt, 40g Saaz hops and 150g of Chocolate grain to make a Schwartzbier (or Black Pilsner). 20g of the hops were boiled with the grain liquor. 20g were put dry into the fermenter after the krausen died down. Turned out beautifully.

Welcome aboard the boards, good to see you here. As before, try and not be daunted by the influx of new info.

Cheers - boingk

PS: As for freezing hops, try keeping the packages in zip-lock bags (with the air sucked out) in the freezer. Also, racking to secondary is useful as it helps drop the final gravity points by stimulating yeast activity and also removes the brew from the yeast cake, stopping unwanted flavours is let sit for a while.

 

[cdbrown]

Kits and bits are great - it's what I mainly do (well until all the kits are gone). I only did 1 kit and kilo brew before changing over and adding my own hops, grain and malt. The taste is fantastic.

Look through the various threads, do a search based on the type of kit you have and see what others are doing with it, try it out and see how it goes. There's lots of great recipes and heaps more variations to try.

 

[Fatgodzilla]

Fatgodzilla: Right back at ya mate! Where the f is Tuross? Bethania is around Beenleigh SEQ near enough to where Craftbrewer has his stall. Actually born in Wagga and family used to holiday at Tuross Heads so I guess near there?

Same place Chappo. Just like Wagga Wagga people call Wagga Wagga Wagga, Tuross Head people call Tuross Head Tuross.

You've been to paradise - Bethania must be disappointing in comparison

By the way I would be very interested to help and see an AG brew day. So what would be the best way to go about finding someone willing for me to bumble around, slow them down and get in the way on their brew day? Should I post something up on the forums to start?

I'm sure there are some AHB people from your area on the AHB (noticed Bethania name before and didn't know where it was). Keep an eye out for peoples locations and send PMs to any nearby - you'll find someone close who'll be keen to show you things. In the meantime, the blokes who have been answering are good brewers and given some good answers. When you are ready to take the AG step, take your cash to Craftbrewer and Ross won't let you go astray. (he will let you go home broke !) Gees I wish he was my local HBS !

 

[chappo1970]

LOL Fatgodzilla!

:icon_offtopic: I just googled Tuross on google earth to see if the old shack was still there. Looks like it has long gone unfortunately. It was up near the head land a little fibro place with only wooden shutters for windows. Used to get eaten alive my mossies and sand flies. Ahh the good old days. You are right about one thing it is gods country!

Now no one be shocked but Ross has already been visiting my wallet and will probably be visiting it again in the near future I suspect. Good bloke with great advice and good prices (Ross do I get a discount now?). Next big purchase is some of his cheapy $40 kegs and kegging equipment. Then who knows probable more gear for the adventure down the dark side as I have heard it called.

cdbrown thanks mate your right this is an beaut forum.

Boingk thanks for the advice mate! Love the sound of that recipe. Just a quick question though does that Black Pilsner turn out black like a stout or a more amber?

 

[Bribie G]

There's the Brisbane Amateur Beer Brewers meeting on tonight (see clubs section on the forum) - probably too short notice for you but it's fourth thursday of the month, so might see you there in February? It's held on the Southside off Logan Road at Holland Park, 7.30 for an 8pm start. Not affiliated with this forum but you bump into heaps of the Brisbane forumites.

 

[chappo1970]

BribieG That's sound like a goer. This month is out of the question SWMBO would tap dance on my poor hen pecked head with such short notice. But Feb would be the ticket. Do I have to contact anyone before turning up? I read up on the website and it's basically $6 for the evening which seems reasonable. Cheers Mate!

 

[Bribie G]

BribieG That's sound like a goer. This month is out of the question SWMBO would tap dance on my poor hen pecked head with such short notice. But Feb would be the ticket. Do I have to contact anyone before turning up? I read up on the website and it's basically $6 for the evening which seems reasonable. Cheers Mate!

I've only just joined myself, just turn up and announce yourself to the guy collecting the $6 and he'll put you down as a visitor. There's usually a talk or a demo and there is a mini-comp every month, I'll be entering in the English Bitter section if my best bitter (bottling on Monday) passes muster.