The Flag

[Ducatiboy stu]

 

[OzMick]

Best reason I have heard for changing the flag? All the bogans who have hijacked it and had it tatooed on their bodies will need to have it removed. Disgraceful some of the rubbish you see people doing while wearing the flag as a cape, as though whatever they do while wearing it makes them patriotic.

 

[browndog]

Best reason I have heard for changing the flag? All the bogans who have hijacked it and had it tatooed on their bodies will need to have it removed. Disgraceful some of the rubbish you see people doing while wearing the flag as a cape, as though whatever they do while wearing it makes them patriotic.

Have to agree with you there Mick.

-BD

 

[bum]

Yeah, I've seen quite a bit done under the flag that shames me today.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Not real keen on Australian flag thongs..... :angry:

 

[gregs]

One thing that annoys me about the Australian Flag debate that springs up from time to time is the "Oh the soldiers and servicemen both men and women who died defending the flag and we are going to be grinding their memory into the dust if we change the flag... wail wail wail"

They are IMHO playing "now I've got you you sons of Child molester bitches". However to take an objective view, several Commonwealth countries have adopted new national flags and in the case of Canada I could be wrong but more Canadians have given their lives for the empire than Aussies and New Zealanders put together but they gladly embraced their Maple Leaf flag back back in the 60s, 70s ????

Canadian members here, can you remember, or know of, what debates surrounded the choice of the maple leaf flag at that time? An 'inside' view on this from other colonial cousins would be illuminating.

So you come to my county for whatever reason and then jump on the band wagon to change the Australian flag. Well - (BRIBIEG) why put forward a post that suggests that you want the Australian flag that my Grandfather and Farther in-law have both died under to make this place a better place for YOU MISTER BRIBIEG to live in. I think you are a self centred person that would do well keeping your un savoury comments to yourself.

If for any reason you would like the Australian flag changed then put forward a reasonable suggestion and stop provoking useless argument.

 

[bum]

So you come to my county for whatever reason and then jump on the band wagon to change the Australian flag. Well - (BRIBIEG) why put forward a post that suggests that you want the Australian flag that my Grandfather and Farther in-law have both died under to make this place a better place for YOU MISTER BRIBIEG to live in. I think you are a self centred person that would do well keeping your un savoury comments to yourself.

If for any reason you would like the Australian flag changed then put forward a reasonable suggestion and stop provoking useless argument.

I agree!!!!! To me that flag represents everything I love about this country - especially free speech!!! IF you don't like the flag - SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!

 

[manticle]

So you come to my county for whatever reason and then jump on the band wagon to change the Australian flag. Well - (BRIBIEG) why put forward a post that suggests that you want the Australian flag that my Grandfather and Farther in-law have both died under to make this place a better place for YOU MISTER BRIBIEG to live in. I think you are a self centred person that would do well keeping your un savoury comments to yourself.

If for any reason you would like the Australian flag changed then put forward a reasonable suggestion and stop provoking useless argument.

Agree or disagree but don't play the 'immigrants should like it or lump it card'.

Emotive issue for some maybe but it's the opinion of one Australian citizen over another, no matter what their origin.

By the way I was born here as were my parents etc, etc and many of my relatives died in wars too. It doesn't make you special or right by default or more entitled to an opinion
than someone else. Half the reason this country is great (and half the reason our relatives fought and died) is because it's a place, (when at its best) that someone can express a political opinion without fear of prosectution, persecution or censure.

 

[gregs]

Agree or disagree but don't play the 'immigrants should like it or lump it card'.

Emotive issue for some maybe but it's the opinion of one Australian citizen over another, no matter what their origin.

By the way I was born here as were my parents etc, etc and many of my relatives died in wars too. It doesn't make you special or right by default or more entitled to an opinion
than someone else. Half the reason this country is great (and half the reason our relatives fought and died) is because it's a place, (when at its best) that someone can express a political opinion without fear of prosectution, persecution or censure.

I didnt say I am entitled or have more right than anybody else, but I am more passionate about the flag I was born under than others, and as I said if you want to change the Australian flag for whatever reason then put forward some reasonable reasons why we should. Dont make the argument that immigrants should have their say without putting forward there reasons.

 

[peas_and_corn]

One thing I find interesting about the 'flag Australians died under' is that until after ww2 there were two Australian flags- same sort of design, but different colour schemes. It wasn't until after the war they decided on the blue scheme.

Flags represent the state, not the nation. It's an important difference to make. That people have romanticised it makes no difference to this.

 

[bum]

I didn't say I am entitled or have more right than anybody else...[snip]...Don't make the argument that immigrants should have their say without putting forward there reasons.

:huh:

That people have romanticised it makes no difference to this.

I agree with the point made but it isn't really the case. It should make no difference but it does as this is an emotive issue. If you were to rationalise the issue completely we'd realise it is just a bit of cloth and it is our actions, as a nation, that mean something. That all requires a bit too much work, sadly.

 

[manticle]

I didn't say I am entitled or have more right than anybody else, but I am more passionate about the flag I was born under than others, and as I said if you want to change the Australian flag for whatever reason then put forward some reasonable reasons why we should. Don't make the argument that immigrants should have their say without putting forward there reasons.

It goes both ways though. Everyone has the right to an opinion - that opinion is only likely to hold any weight if it's backed up with something substantial.

Your argument relied on the idea that someone who was born elsewhere has less right to say something than someone who doesn't. It didn't involve a whole lot of reason or counter points.

If you disagree with bribieG then fair enough but you yourself should offer more for your reasoning than attacking his origin.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I vote mauve with salmon trim

 

[gregs]

It goes both ways though. Everyone has the right to an opinion - that opinion is only likely to hold any weight if it's backed up with something substantial.

Your argument relied on the idea that someone who was born elsewhere has less right to say something than someone who doesn't. It didn't involve a whole lot of reason or counter points.

If you disagree with bribieG then fair enough but you yourself should offer more for your reasoning than attacking his origin.

The flag is what it is if you wish to change it then put forward you reason or shut up.

 

[bum]

I wanna change it to piss gregs off.

 

[Steve]

Nobody fought or died for "the flag" which, after all, is only a symbol and a piece of cloth.
Our solders fought for our country, so changing the flag will make no difference to that.

Ive read on many occasions that they did want want to volunteer to die for their flag, yes it was just a symbol, it was THEIR symbol, in their eyes it wasnt just a piece of cloth, it was what they've being brought up to believe as THEIR national id and no fucker was going to take it off em, even if it cost them their life. I would like you to go and find (if possible) a WWI vet (and maybe a WWII vet) and tell them what you just said. Ive read many excerpts from WWI saying the total opposite to what you just said warra. I agree that they fought for our country (who the **** wouldnt fight for this place).
Cheers
Steve

 

[manticle]

The flag is what it is if you wish to change it then put forward you reason or shut up.

Completely different argument as I was referring to your argument against bribieG not touting an argument of my own.

However since you ask: Firstly the flag to me is a symbol and I believe symbols should be only ever seen for what they are. Nobody should ever die, be beaten up, tortured, wounded or maimed purely for a symbol. Symbols are important but they are not as important as the things they represent. If they become more important than what they represent, they lose meaning for me.

Essentially that means if the flag changes I could be supportive depending on the new flag. If it stays the same I can also live.

The union jack means very little to me - if anything it symbolises a colonial invasion that happened many years ago (long enough that I can get on with my life, recently enough that I can see the effects on some people). Australia is essentially an autonomous country (supposedly) and the government and monarchy of the UK have very little to do with the running of it. Argument 1 for removing the Union Jack: a nation full of convicts standing up for their liberation from repression.

The Southern Cross to me is a great symbol. Unfortunately it's been misappropriated by nationalist thugs and yobbos who have as much to do with being Australian as an oak tree. There's some argument for changing it to reflect Australia as a diverse society rather than a closed one.

The current flag completely ignores the fact that this land was inhabited by people who are now part of the oldest living cultures on the face of the planet. There is a reasonable argument for the inclusion of said cultures on a national flag.

The current flag also ignores the fact that all other people who came to this country from the late eighteenth century onwards were immigrants and as such immigrants have formed a basic part of our culture. It hails the UK and a stellar formation as representing all Australians and their history.

As I said - the symbol of a flag is much less important to me than the attitudes and behaviours of those who live under its banner but if it were to change they would be the bits that I feel should be considered. Those are my arguments for changing it.

What are yours for keeping it?

 

[gregs]

Completely different argument as I was referring to your argument against bribieG not touting an argument of my own.

However since you ask: Firstly the flag to me is a symbol and I believe symbols should be only ever seen for what they are. Nobody should ever die, be beaten up, tortured, wounded or maimed purely for a symbol. Symbols are important but they are not as important as the things they represent. If they become more important than what they represent, they lose meaning for me.

Essentially that means if the flag changes I could be supportive depending on the new flag. If it stays the same I can also live.

The union jack means very little to me - if anything it symbolises a colonial invasion that happened many years ago (long enough that I can get on with my life, recently enough that I can see the effects on some people). Australia is essentially an autonomous country (supposedly) and the government and monarchy of the UK have very little to do with the running of it. Argument 1 for removing the Union Jack: a nation full of convicts standing up for their liberation from repression.

The Southern Cross to me is a great symbol. Unfortunately it's been misappropriated by nationalist thugs and yobbos who have as much to do with being Australian as an oak tree. There's some argument for changing it to reflect Australia as a diverse society rather than a closed one.

The current flag completely ignores the fact that this land was inhabited by people who are now part of the oldest living cultures on the face of the planet. There is a reasonable argument for the inclusion of said cultures on a national flag.

The current flag also ignores the fact that all other people who came to this country from the late eighteenth century onwards were immigrants and as such immigrants have formed a basic part of our culture. It hails the UK and a stellar formation as representing all Australians and their history.

As I said - the symbol of a flag is much less important to me than the attitudes and behaviours of those who live under its banner but if it were to change they would be the bits that I feel should be considered. Those are my arguments for changing it.

What are yours for keeping it?

A person wanting to change the flag doesnt piss me off. A person who wishes to change the flag without putting forward a reason does. You still havent given your reason, you started to in post 57 but it never went anywhere.

I will ask again if you or any one else supports a change in the flag then put forward your reason.

 

[bum]

Is this the referendum?

 

[manticle]

I'm confused. The above are all my reasons why I would support a change - that the current national flag doesn't represent what I think it should and that it should be inclusive of aboriginal Australia, immigrant australia, diversity, freedom and respect rather than representative of a master/slave relationship.