Tannins

[pmolou]

so im interested as to how tannins taste in a beer, i know there undesirable but can anyone actually describe the taste

 

[Adamt]

Mouth-puckering astringency... probably the only way to describe it. Best way is to experience it... Leave a teabag in some boiling water for an extended period and taste it.

 

[Brewer_010]

I think it's like an over-stewed tea bag taste. Get a taste of it by stewing a tea bag in boiled water for a good 5 mins or longer and don't add milk.

In some of my first extracts + grain brews I was steeping the grain in water that was too hot which I believe was extracting tannins (also my crush was too crushed), led to a slight puckering flavour at the end of a mouthful.

Now I wet the grain slightly before crushing and 'mash' at proper temps with the flavour no longer appearing in my beers.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

the teabag description works for me - the difference between a well brewed cup of black tea and one that has been stewed too long.

I find that for me its less a flavour than a physical mouthfeel thing - drying on the tounge, puckering, feeling a little "grippy" or squeaky on your teeth.

Its less that they taste bad in and of themselves, and more that they effect the feel of the beer and the way the other flavours come out - muting maltiness and making bitterness seem more harsh and biting.

Or at least thats what they do in my mouth.... everyone's perceptions will be a little different.

TB

 

[bradsbrew]

OK there is always talk of tannins when you mash too high. But what if we go the other way and mash too low, apart from efficiency what are the effects on taste if the mash is too low?

Cheers Brad

 

[Adamt]

The main concerns with mashing too low is either making an over-attenuative wort, or a weaker wort from low mash efficiency.

 

[domonsura]

It would more be an effect on the conversion efficiency of the mash if mashed too low, if the mash isn't within the proper temperature range (commonly quoted as 62-68 degrees C) you won't get proper conversion of the starches to sugars. A very low mash temperature results in a beer that finishes dry, with less body or mouthfeel and sometimes head retention, sometimes tastes a touch watery. The less immediately obvious effect of a lower mash would/should be a higher alcohol content (lower mash temp results in higher proportion of fermentable sugars produced, so larger proportion of sugar converted to alcohol, but lower proportion of complex sugars left behind to provide mouthfeel and flavour) but that depends on still being within that temperature range - too far below 62 ish degrees and there will be very little conversion of the starches happening, so very little sugar for the yeast to consume.

Best to stick within that range

 

[katzke]

OK there is always talk of tannins when you mash too high. But what if we go the other way and mash too low, apart from efficiency what are the effects on taste if the mash is too low?

Cheers Brad

Some brewers think it is like the chicken and egg question, you know, what came first.

Temperature will not extract tannins by itself. High pH is what extracts the tannins and then the hot water rinses them out. One of the posters mentioned having the problem with too hot of a sparge and now at proper mash temps the tannins are gone. More water with high alkalinity will extract tannins when less water with the same alkalinity will not (as long as the acid in the grains can buffer the alkalinity). The temperature has nothing to do with the extraction just the rinsing. An example is decoction mashing where part of the grain and very little water is boiled. More grain then water and the grains can buffer the pH so little or no tannins are extracted by the heat.

 

[newguy]

In low concentrations, most people mistake/associate tannins with bitterness.....a lingering harsh bitterness. In some cases I also get freshly mown grass. In high concentrations you do get the puckering tea-bag harshness that others have described.

 

[bradsbrew]

Some brewers think it is like the chicken and egg question, you know, what came first.

Thanks for the info there katzke.
:icon_offtopic: I have thought alot about the chicken and the egg and believe it is definatly the egg. Simply two different breeds of foul(similar to chickens) mate and create a chicken egg.

Cheers Brad

 

[matti]

Tannings to me feel like a over all bitterness across the surface your tongue and a dried feeling at the roof of the mouth.

Just like drnking a normal cup of tea without any sweetener and just a dash of milk to give it a cloudy appearance.

Yammm in a good brand Tea well done and some North England Bitters in small doses with a toasty after taste.

 

[Darren]

Tannins only become an issue when a brewer wants to make a light coloured, lightly hopped beer.. As Katzke wrote, pH rather than mash/sparge temps are the main concern if you are worried.

cheers

darren

PS: Over-hopping is the main culprit for "perceived" tannin

 

[Rob C]

I Have recently done a batch which i think has the taste of tannins. Would it be worth using some 5.2ph stabilizer? I usualy do double batch sparges and i think my 2nd sparge is washing out the tannins from the grain. Does that sound correct?

Next brew ill adjust the way i sparge and see if that helps.

Cheers
Rob

 

[matti]

To answer your question rob.
5.2 stabilizer help with conversion.
in a way it does help as you will not be tempted to draw any more wort out of the mash then intended in 1st place.

The trick to avoid tannins is to have an adequate filter bed in your mash tun as well as correct ph and temperature in your sparge water.
For instance: Correct temperature but alkaline mash water may extract some tannins out.

1. good filtering depend a lot on crush. The grain should be crushed with shell intact or you may use rice hulls.
2. correct temperature absolute critical. 77-78 perferct hot enough for sugar to run free without drawing any tannins out.
3.pH is best to be kept at 5.8-6.5 during lautering for best results.

1&2 apllies to ales and all 3 when making light lagers.
Tannins may be released when using speciaclity grains early in mash.
These(speciality grains) are quite often added late in the mash as the coversion has already been completed and they are only there to contribute flavour and colour.

Matti

 

[pmolou]

so if as happened with my first go at steeping grains i had quite a bit of grain get into the fermentor and can see little bits of them in the yeast sediment in my bottles... would cause tannin extraction yes?
might've just found the reason this beer is undrinkable if this si true

 

[matti]

Tannins are released if over steeped.
A couple of grain going into fermenter should not make that much a difference if steeped correctly.

 

[dr K]

Beer is full of tannins.
Whilst the term tannin derives from oak gall or whatever else was used to tan leather, these days the words tannins and polyphenols are essentially interchangeable (one is the other). Hops anyone..lots of polyphenols, malt a suprising amount. It is the tannins that help head retention , they help hot break and cold break by bonding with proteins, they also cause chill haze by the same process.
As the more descriptive name implies there are lots and lots of polyphenols.
The ones we need worry about are the big fat lazy Norm's, not easily dissolved in the mash chaps which co-incidently are found in the husks, closer to the Tele I guess!. As others have pointed out if you do not sparge too long (say 1015 max) or too hot then the pH will not rise to the levels (not sure something like 6) that allows these blokes to dissolve and make it through to you beer. The problem is that they oxidize and cause compounds that tan your hide, well your tongue at any rate. A gross overkill on hops (AKA "Paintstripper") has a similar effect.
Enjoy your Tannins.....(pick up any tree hugging tea packet and read about the benefits of anti-oxidants).

K

 

[Muggus]

What about roasted grains?
Could they also be responsible for tannins in a beer?

 

[dr K]

All malt is responsible for tannins.
Large qty of roasted grains need to be balanced with carbonate (usually Calcium).
Palmer has done some excellent work on this.

K