Tankless Hot Water System

[technoicon]

I have been reading up on tankless hot water systems. I'm wondering if anyone uses these for there brewing?

I cant really find and good stats for them. from what i can tell, a 6lt/m one will do a + 25 C rise, my water is about 20 C.
So half the water out put 3lt/m and double to rise 50 C, i could get a constant 70C output at 3lt/m. so abit less than 10 mins to fill my 30lt urn seems good.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/LPG-GAS-STAINLESS-S...#ht_5307wt_1208
$240

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/HOT-Choice-6L-LPG-G...#ht_1320wt_1165
$190

$200 is a lot i guess for hot water but i would like to see how much power this would save vs running a element for say 30-40 mins as i currently do. Plus then there is the advantage of having endless hot water when ever needed other times. (cleaning, etc)

but maybe i'm way off the mark with the conversion, etc. anyone got one of these systems in there homes, and can shed some light would be cool.

 

[MHB]

Instant Hot Water Systems (HWS) are used in quite a few small breweries; unfortunately the industrial ones that will do the job are about 10 Times the price of the toy ones on eBay.

Note the 20 minute shut off timer and I think you will find other safety devices that limit the maximum output temperature.

Decent sized ones work really well.

MHB

 

[Wolfy]

They actually sell units very similar to those ebay ones at my local Aldi store.

However, I'm not sure when you are suggesting they'd be useful?
As a HTL for AG brewing, for batch sparging you'd need 10-20L at about 60-80C almost instantly, and if not you'd want it at about 75C for the duration of the sparge - it does not seem to have the control or practical application you'd be looking for - from what I can understand.

 

[jayse]

With these if you had two in series you could I gather get a rise of 50c for 6 litres a minute.
Or if you plumbed it to your house water service so the water coming in was already 50-60c you would have plenty of flow rate and heating.

 

[crozdog]

I had the same thought for a while. I know of 1 FWK maker who used a commercial unit as MHB says. I looked into the smaller units, but came to the conclusion I couldn't get a big enough temp rise without having to modify the heat exchanger - I was looking at putting another coil inside the existing HEX, but then I scored a commercial version off Grays online. Just had the plumber in to connect gas & water to the shed & hook it up. In rough testing I'm getting 5l @ 75-80 degrees in 50 seconds. not bad, but need further testing to tune it further.guess that's what this weekends bre daywill do ;-)

as to the cost, electricity is getting dearer & 9kg gas bottle refills are $20 - 30 here, so as I use around 1 bottle per brew it'll soon pay for itself - not to mention the improved safety aspects!

forgot to say, if you fed one of those units from your house HWS, you'd only need to raise the temp by around 20 degrees...... something to think about

 

[Justin]

as to the cost, electricity is getting dearer & 9kg gas bottle refills are $20 - 30 here, so as I use around 1 bottle per brew it'll soon pay for itself - not to mention the improved safety aspects!

Yikes, that's pretty expensive to bowl a bottle of gas a brew. Are you running NASA's at full stick for all your vessels or doing double batches? I couldn't afford to brew at that rate with the cost of hops, malt and gas! Guess I've forgotten what it's like to brew with just gas as I've been doing elec+gas brews for ages now.

I know a distillery down here that uses instant heated water instead of a HLT, just straight into the mash tun, works ok but is a little slow. One way to kind of cut some time and cost is to fill your HLT with water straight from you hot water tap as someone mentioned above. I've done that in the past when I've needed sparge water quickly and to also shave time off heating mash in water in the morning. If you had a rusty old HWS you might taste the effects but I've never noticed an issue. I think my tap water is around 65C so it takes very little time with a 2400W handheld to get it to 75.

Cheers, J

 

[manticle]

as to the cost, electricity is getting dearer & 9kg gas bottle refills are $20 - 30 here, so as I use around 1 bottle per brew it'll soon pay for itself

is this misunderstood or do you really use a full 9.5 bottle every brew?

I only boil with my gas (strike and sparge water on the stove, soon to be electric element in HLT) but I get at least 5-6 brews from each and most boils are 75 minutes.

 

[Frank]

I bought one of those eBay HWS, for one of our vineyards to be used with a shower for truckies and staff. The unit would be lucky to get over 45C. Low flow with no cold water to have shower so I was told by the guys using it. It also took a few minutes of running before the water got to that temp. These are no where near instant HWS like the ones on homes.

 

[Sammus]

I use around 1 bottle per brew

holy shite what are you using it for? I only do 25L batches I guess, but I get at least 5 brews, usually about 8-9 from one bottle...

 

[technoicon]

I'm only looking at using it for cheap quick hot water to my HLT, save some time 10 min to mash temp sounds good to me. if i run my urn while added water at 2/3l per minute should hit 72 C by the time i'm up to water volume.

I would like to also use this to sparge, but from what i've read it wouldn't be able to handle this. maybe 2 in a row might be able to. but then the temp cutoff might be a problem.

Boston - does the one you have cut off after 20 mins? and can you just turn it back on or is there a wait time?

crozdog - where can i find these commercial ones? how much are they?

 

[technoicon]

Maybe you could do a dual system with this
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/NEW-ELECTRIC-SINK-INSTANT-TANKLESS-HOT-WATER-HEATER-2KW-/260608344217?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cad77c099#ht_5098wt_930 ://http://cgi.ebay.com.au/NEW-ELECTRIC...#ht_5098wt_930

 

[Frank]

I'm only looking at using it for cheap quick hot water to my HLT, save some time 10 min to mash temp sounds good to me. if i run my urn while added water at 2/3l per minute should hit 72 C by the time i'm up to water volume.

I would like to also use this to sparge, but from what i've read it wouldn't be able to handle this. maybe 2 in a row might be able to. but then the temp cutoff might be a problem.

Boston - does the one you have cut off after 20 mins? and can you just turn it back on or is there a wait time?

crozdog - where can i find these commercial ones? how much are they?

As far as I know there is not a timer on it.

 

[crozdog]

to answer the queries re using 1 bottle per brew, my kettle is 170L & mash tun is 200l, so it needs a lot of hot water!!!!

I use a HP 2ring burner with a HP reg, so it does suck the gas.

I got my commercial unit 2nd hand of a grays online auction when the Akuna Brewery sold off a pile of stuff. New they are around $2500, but picked it up for around $400 SCORE!!!

BTW, I have a 2nd hand Bosch W125 6ltr Instant Natural Gas Hot Water Unit I'll sell to anyone who'd like to experiment for offers over $50 (pick it up only)

croz

 

[manticle]

to answer the queries re using 1 bottle per brew, my kettle is 170L & mash tun is 200l, so it needs a lot of hot water!!!!

I use a HP 2ring burner with a HP reg, so it does suck the gas.

I got my commercial unit 2nd hand of a grays online auction when the Akuna Brewery sold off a pile of stuff. New they are around $2500, but picked it up for around $400 SCORE!!!

BTW, I have a 2nd hand Bosch W125 6ltr Instant Natural Gas Hot Water Unit I'll sell to anyone who'd like to experiment for offers over $50 (pick it up only)

croz

That makes more sense. If your system is that big can't you get a bigger bottle?

 

[crozdog]

That makes more sense. If your system is that big can't you get a bigger bottle?

could do, but i now have gas & water connected to the shed!! Used the trench to run a decent size sub mains from the meter box so I can sort out a RIMS/HERMS too.

also, a bigger bottle doesn't remove the logistics & OH&S issues involved when you need to move 150+L of hot water around particularly when you have a bunch of guys around for a brew day & the sampling / comparison / evaluation / constructive criticism is well underway :beer:

 

[barls]

hey croz we will test that out this saturday.

 

[crozdog]

hey croz we will test that out this saturday.

That's the plan!! : :super: that way I have witnesses if anything stuffs up B)

 

[manticle]

could do, but i now have gas & water connected to the shed!! Used the trench to run a decent size sub mains from the meter box so I can sort out a RIMS/HERMS too.

also, a bigger bottle doesn't remove the logistics & OH&S issues involved when you need to move 150+L of hot water around particularly when you have a bunch of guys around for a brew day & the sampling / comparison / evaluation / constructive criticism is well underway :beer:

You may need to invest in some slaves.

 

[barls]

i saw nothing. thats my official stance at work and at home, hey croz does that bbq of yours have a wok burner on it. if so i might bring the mini smoker and we can do some sausages.
i got some more saw dust to try.

 

[technoicon]

to answer the queries re using 1 bottle per brew, my kettle is 170L & mash tun is 200l, so it needs a lot of hot water!!!!

I use a HP 2ring burner with a HP reg, so it does suck the gas.

I got my commercial unit 2nd hand of a grays online auction when the Akuna Brewery sold off a pile of stuff. New they are around $2500, but picked it up for around $400 SCORE!!!

BTW, I have a 2nd hand Bosch W125 6ltr Instant Natural Gas Hot Water Unit I'll sell to anyone who'd like to experiment for offers over $50 (pick it up only)

croz

i would snap the bosch up in a second if i didnt live in a rental, we have natural gas but dont think they would like me putting one in. . plus pickup would be a problem from vic!! ;D