System Wars / Anhc 2010

[Gopha]

Do we expand this with a retrial of various systems as part of Adelaide hosting the Nationals next year?

Hi, Maybe I could throw in another contender a two vessel, gas fired Rims, BIAB rig with counter flow chiller -Cheers :icon_cheers:

 

[beerbrewer76543]

How about an electric element under false floor, recirculating BIAB with ramp/soak PID controller and overhead pulley?

(this is what I am building - apartment brewer)

:beerbang:

 

[manticle]

:lol: I'll tell you what - the tastingand judging was anything but serious on the day! Definitely the funniest conference session I've ever attended! I still think they screwed up the labels on the kegs h34r:

Don't worry - you are making perfect sense!

Cheers - Snow

If the judging had any relation to the general feeling at club night, I'm sure it was a riot. Brewers can be a nerdy serious lot but when you get them out of their nerd suits for a minute, they can be a barrel of monkeys' chuckles.

Good to know I'm making sense and cheers to many more system wars in the same spirit.

PS Thirsty Boy probably changed the labels when no-one was looking.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

That's a very narrow plurality, not a win (unless this is a US election). Add up the "traditional" systems and you have a clear win and a fairer representation. I have nothing against BIAB but don't like people claiming a result which isn't.

okey dokey then - my grasp of the universe and the way it works is obviously faulty. You being in an elevated enough position to point out my foibles, obviously don't share them, so please use your enlightened understanding to educate me and the others in the class.

If:

Glass with Black stripe gets 80 votes
Glass with Red stripe gets 78 votes
Glass with Blue strip gets 25 votes

&: You've previously stated that to claim that the Black stripe is the winner, is to be "claiming a result that isn't" (and you don't like it)

Then: Which one of the red or blue striped glass should be the winner and why? GO.....

If the judging had any relation to the general feeling at club night, I'm sure it was a riot. Brewers can be a nerdy serious lot but when you get them out of their nerd suits for a minute, they can be a barrel of monkeys' chuckles.

Good to know I'm making sense and cheers to many more system wars in the same spirit.

PS Thirsty Boy probably changed the labels when no-one was looking.

I would have if I could have.... the result doesn't actually suit me as a matter of fact. I would have much preferred the BIAB to run a close second behind the HERMS. I run a RIMS at home and the HERMS losing makes all that time money and effort spent look a little futile....

Of course, anyone who was there and actually paying attention, would have realised as soon as they started flashing the lights, playing the loud music and announcing the brewers Rock & Roll Wrestling style, that perhaps this wasn't going to be the most serious scientific analysis of all time.... and that the object of the game was to have some fun, take the piss a little and show that none of the systems was so far out in front, or so far behind - that you cant brew great beer on it.

It would have been heaps more fun if gravity had come last.... Riggers might have gone on a rampage and hit a few people with chairs.

Of course - the beer we brewed won.... and if you don't like it, you can kiss my curvy butt.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Maybe also there was a ellement of bias involved, most people liked what the black had and would have proberly thought the blue just as good, maybe could not pick them, then when the majority up the front picked the black over the blue (and red) they all choose to go with that. Bias is a real factor as explain by Andrew.......

So if you put that definite bias to black aside which would count for more then a handfull that puts red on top. :super:
Yes I think gravity is best and dispite what real merits the excerise has it came out on top for me.

Don't take my post too seriuosly, maybe like the actual fun ellement of the whole excercise.

hah - bias schmias... you don't reckon that asking Gordon Strong, the most highly qualified beer judge in the whole damn world, which one he liked best and having him say RED, didn't bump their sorry arsed numbers up a chunk?

Of course having the most highly qualified beer judge in the world say he liked the red one the best also says something else.... something I'd rather not think about - and so now I will put my fingers in my ears and sing la la la very loudly indeed.

 

[RdeVjun]

TB, you're in the industry and obviously have a lab coat, what objective measures (i.e. lab analysis) would you put the three batches through and is it too late to consider that?

 

[jayse]

hah - bias schmias... you don't reckon that asking Gordon Strong, the most highly qualified beer judge in the whole damn world, which one he liked best and having him say RED, didn't bump their sorry arsed numbers up a chunk?

Of course having the most highly qualified beer judge in the world say he liked the red one the best also says something else.... something I'd rather not think about - and so now I will put my fingers in my ears and sing la la la very loudly indeed.

Well pointed out, I had forgoten about that actually, like I said I was not really being all that serious really just adding my voice to the stirring, sorry conversation.

There were a few things I had forgoten when i got home, I thought shit I didn't make the bjcp meeting, then several hours later remembered thats right I did it was in the theatre and we did discuss some interesting things.

I do like the idea of biab and oneday if I end up an old geezer gypsy going around the counrty in a beat up caravan the first thing I get for it will be a urn and a bag. B) second would be a rope and a shovel for all the murdering

 

[Thirsty Boy]

TB, you're in the industry and obviously have a lab coat, what objective measures (i.e. lab analysis) would you put the three batches through and is it too late to consider that?

none - we didn't try to equalise them completely, we kept them the same across recipe and roughly the same across the major mash/boil/ferment parameters and more or less tried to brew the same beer. This was never meant to be a lab quality experiment, just a way to compare apples with apples and keep the plums out of the mix.

You might try things like measuring clarity and stability over time as a measure of each technique's ability to produce a technically "high quality" beer - but beer is for drinking, and asking a room full of people whether they liked it or not was more than good enough to demonstrate everything we were trying to show.

I bought my lab coat from the OP shop.

Well pointed out, I had forgoten about that actually, like I said I was not really being all that serious really just adding my voice to the stirring, sorry conversation

If I recall correctly - trash talk made up a good 15% of the grist for the recipes on both system wars brew days. I salute your stirring - and as soon as you turn you back, I plan to hit you in the head with the virtual folding chair of righteousness.

 

[manticle]

the object of the game was to have some fun, take the piss a little and show that none of the systems was so far out in front, or so far behind - that you cant brew great beer on it.

My exact point.


Congrats to the BIAB brewers

 

[tavas]

Just so I'm up to speed:
BIAB: you take malted grain, mash it and make beer
Gravity: you take malted grain, mash it and make beer
HERMS: you take malted grain, mash it and make beer


Talk about flogging a dead horse.

 

[bconnery]

If I recall correctly - trash talk made up a good 15% of the grist for the recipes on both system wars brew days.

So there's another potential variable then, perhaps some "stirred" more than others....

 

[dgilks]

okey dokey then - my grasp of the universe and the way it works is obviously faulty. You being in an elevated enough position to point out my foibles, obviously don't share them, so please use your enlightened understanding to educate me and the others in the class.

If:

Glass with Black stripe gets 80 votes
Glass with Red stripe gets 78 votes
Glass with Blue strip gets 25 votes

&: You've previously stated that to claim that the Black stripe is the winner, is to be "claiming a result that isn't" (and you don't like it)

Then: Which one of the red or blue striped glass should be the winner and why? GO.....



I would have if I could have.... the result doesn't actually suit me as a matter of fact. I would have much preferred the BIAB to run a close second behind the HERMS. I run a RIMS at home and the HERMS losing makes all that time money and effort spent look a little futile....

Of course, anyone who was there and actually paying attention, would have realised as soon as they started flashing the lights, playing the loud music and announcing the brewers Rock & Roll Wrestling style, that perhaps this wasn't going to be the most serious scientific analysis of all time.... and that the object of the game was to have some fun, take the piss a little and show that none of the systems was so far out in front, or so far behind - that you cant brew great beer on it.

It would have been heaps more fun if gravity had come last.... Riggers might have gone on a rampage and hit a few people with chairs.

Of course - the beer we brewed won.... and if you don't like it, you can kiss my curvy butt.

The answer is pretty bloody simple. None of them "won". None of them had a majority of people say they preferred it and the top two were separated by all of two votes. It's like the last federal election and we all know that the group with the second highest number of seats "won" there.

Sure, there are people trying to make a point that BIAB is good or not. I don't care. I make good beer using my gravity system and that's all that matters to me. My point is that this unscientific poll of 150 people where none of the candidates got a majority and the delclared "winner" had a very narrow plurality of votes should not be used to justify anyone's claims about the value of BIAB.

 

[peted27]

was this an election?? since when do you need a majority to win something??

 

[Silo Ted]

Just so I'm up to speed:
BIAB: you take malted grain, mash it and make beer
Gravity: you take malted grain, mash it and make beer
HERMS: you take malted grain, mash it and make beer


Talk about flogging a dead horse.

Hmmm, it isn't difficult to understand that they are all variations on the same theme, and I dont see what the whingeing is about. I have no idea why some people maintain such a stubborn refusal to accept anything new. Reluctance to change is very close minded.

So dgilks if these figures of an informal, unscientific test aren't representative of anything, should we cross examine the recent state and national competitions, and see how many BIAB beers made it into the top 10 of each category? Or can someone find BribieG's photo-album with all the awards he's personally won from BIAB beers, not to mention a trip to NZ.

BIAB is just as credible as 3V in where it counts - THE RESULTS. You speak of traditional methods, so I assume you are using a wooden barrel in which you use hot stones to bring the temp up, or do you use a cauldron on a bonfire, before transferring the wort into an open vat fermenter, for the wild yeast growing in the ceiling cobwebs to start infecting.

Time has shown that there are alternative methods, and time continues to do so. Just deal with it.

 

[argon]

The answer is pretty bloody simple. None of them "won". None of them had a majority of people say they preferred it and the top two were separated by all of two votes. It's like the last federal election and we all know that the group with the second highest number of seats "won" there.

Sure, there are people trying to make a point that BIAB is good or not. I don't care. I make good beer using my gravity system and that's all that matters to me. My point is that this unscientific poll of 150 people where none of the candidates got a majority and the delclared "winner" had a very narrow plurality of votes should not be used to justify anyone's claims about the value of BIAB.

ohh man, i watched the Wallabies beat the All Blacks on saturday night by 2 points... turns out by your definition they didn't win... dammit :huh:

 

[goomboogo]

I just wish that I could make good beer, irrespective of system. I'm sure my beer making will improve one day - it must.

 

[manticle]

The answer is pretty bloody simple. None of them "won". None of them had a majority of people say they preferred it and the top two were separated by all of two votes. It's like the last federal election and we all know that the group with the second highest number of seats "won" there.

Sure, there are people trying to make a point that BIAB is good or not. I don't care. I make good beer using my gravity system and that's all that matters to me. My point is that this unscientific poll of 150 people where none of the candidates got a majority and the delclared "winner" had a very narrow plurality of votes should not be used to justify anyone's claims about the value of BIAB.

I think the point was more to refute naysayers than to make any grandiose statements about BIAB being the ultimate winner. Why does it matter? Just say 'congrats boys' like you would with any winner of any competition and move on. They won the system wars competition as it stands and as it was designed. It's not the Nobel peace prize and I'm pretty sure they aren't suggesting it should be seen as such.

It's got nothing to do with elections either.

I think Tavas said it best.

 

[dr K]

Silly is it not..what was clearly a great (brilliant indeed) promotion, a damn good muck around, especially for those who were ther turns into some kind of holy war on a forum.
OK, yes I was there, I was second row from the front, LHS, aisle seat. As the beers were served front to back I had pretty much first cabs off for all three beers. I was looking foward to this so I saved bit of space in my brain to consider.
Conclusion of Initial thoughts (and really was in full flight mode) and I hope in order
Red: Fresh, claen, good hop nose
Black: Grainy undertones but otherwise fine
Blue: Fell between the two
So it was Red Blue Black
A friend of mine who is not a BJCP judge was behind me, he went exactly in the opposite direction, my friend has won more comps than I, and I value his judgement, he figured Blue had some problems and as the three beers warmed I moved to his camp, in that I shifted to Red Black Blue It is invalid to argue the scientific mthod over this "war" or even the far more rubbery one...it was a great concept, brilliantly executed.
My friend is possibly going to convert to BIAB from what I gathered, perhaps his beer will improve (not bloody likely its worse than mine sometimes)

K