Summer Ale - First AG - 3V System

[shaunous]

Arvo Men,
If all goes well tomorrow, depending on family issues I want to do a verison of Ross's NSSA.

My twist is below, let me know if this'll taste like ****, or not be a real summer quaffer at least.
Im doing a double batch to pump up the volume over the hot season.

Using tank water and don't want to get into water chem on my first AG.

I do have many other hops, but not enough of the NS 20g, or Cascade 70g (These 2 being probably the best option)

Hops are 3-5 year old, frozen the whole time, should I add more, or not worry about it for the first brew?

Mash water volume 20L, ok?
Start mash recirc after 10mins, continue until finished, ok?

Whilfloc tablet with 10mins to go in boil, even though i'll be adding an aroma addition for 20mins after kettle has cooled, ok?

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 40.0
Total Grain (kg): 8.557
Total Hops (g): 220.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.050 (°P): 12.4
Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (°P): 3.3
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.91 %
Colour (SRM): 5.7 (EBC): 11.2
Bitterness (IBU): 39.1 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 75
Boil Time (Minutes): 90
Grain Bill
----------------
7.855 kg Maris Otter Malt (91.8%)
0.702 kg Rye Malt (8.2%)
Hop Bill
----------------
80.0 g Fuggles Pellet (5.1% Alpha) @ 80 Minutes (Boil) (2 g/L)
40.0 g Fuggles Pellet (5.1% Alpha) @ 20 Minutes (Boil) (1 g/L)
40.0 g Fuggles Pellet (5.1% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil) (1 g/L)
60.0 g Fuggles Pellet (5.1% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma) (1.5 g/L)
Misc Bill
----------------
Single step Infusion at 64°C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 18°C with Safale US-05
Notes
----------------
60gm 0 min = added 10 mins after flame out & steeped for 20 mins before chilling.


Thanks in advance.

Shaun

 

[Yob]

it all a little confusing TBH

3l per kg is generally a good liquor to grist ratio

recirc after mash in

Whirfloc @ 10 is generally ok.

das alot of Fuggles...

 

[carpedaym]

I've also noticed in English Pale Ale recipes (which obviously use English-style hops) that late hopping rates are usually a half of something with American hops.

What other hops do you have on hand? Mixing up your NS and cascade would work for sure. You could always bitter with something neutral (if you have it), meaning you just need 113g of flavour/aroma additions, of which you already have 90g, if I've understood you correctly (20g NS + 90g Cascade).

I've not even tasted something with rye, so can't comment on that substitute.

 

[shaunous]

About to finish mashing and start the 90min boil.

Figured in the end i'll just stick with the fuggles, at least i'll know what they taste like on their own :unsure:

Only have 70g cascade and 20 NS.

Got a heap of other, but probably none that'd suit.

So far so good, brought the total mash volume to 25L, and my sparge arm is just under water/wort. I reckon I could get away with a little less water for a double next time.

 

[JB]

Good luck Shaunous, look forward to further updates.

I made a brew with rye, I loved it & recommend the recipe: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/recipe/1434-lord-nelson-citra-cascading-out-of-this-galaxy-pale-ale/

 

[shaunous]

Im not sure if the Topic Title says what I meant, I didn't mean my first AG on a 3V system, I meant its my first AG ever, and im using a 3v system. Hence the question and so forth.

I've changed the Aroma addition to 24g NS and 56g Cascade. Its still an hour away in the boil to be added, so if this sounds like a bad idea, let me know and i'll just go back to Fuggles.

I figured them 3 would work ok together with rye, having said that I've never done a rye.

ALSO, when looking for the MO, I found a 1/4 bag of wheat that I didn't even know about, so I could have near done the NSSA anyway :unsure:

 

[shaunous]

Well todays wrap up.

Output was a mere 26L
Post-Boil Gravity was 1.044

Im guessing my sparge didn't draw as much as it should have, the bed was probably 3in under the top of the liquid the whole time, and I completely drained the mash's original 25 Lt into the kettle. and rinsed another 26L around the same 64*c through it, again the water level come up higher then the bed, until it was obviously all drained off. So im not sure, the 'Mash Master gauges seem to be incorrect', it was reading 62-63*c the most of the mash, after reading 61*c for the first 15mins. I checked with my digi thermo(cheap Ebay) which was spot on several weeks ago and it read the correct 64-66*c, so again maybe it wasn't hot enough to break all the sugars out. I should have sparged with a lot hotter water also, yes??

I recirculated the entire time of the mash also, Mash Tun draws from under the dome and pumps back up on top into a basic T sparge arm (needs modding so its ends are capped and has many little holes along it)
When doing single batches this arm would be out of the liquid, for future uses when doing double batches, shoul I raise it so it also out, and maybe up the flow rate of the pump so the liquid it only just on the top of the bed??

Pre-boil gravity was 1.028, which again was to low, but I figured it would have come up alot higher after boil and hop additions.

I need a pre-chiller before the cooler, temperature drop was only 2*c every 5-6mins, I never physically witnessed what one would call a 'cold break'.

After taste testing what went into the fermenter, it tastes ok, real bitter after taste, but I seem to get that in most of my home brew's lately, maybe its my taste buds after being in intensive care hooked up to heavy drugs for a couple of months just recently :huh: . I may be boiling to wildly or something, I used a fairly heavy rolling boil.

I need a decent grain bucket, I didn't realize how much grain physically 8kgs is, its a lot of 10l pots worth transferring to the mill :lol:

I need to set my mill, whats the norm?, I thought it was around 1.5mm, mine didn't wanna do nuttin at that, so I put it out just under 2mm, and ran the grain through twice.

Havnt pitched the yeast yet, still waiting for the wort to drop down to 18*c, its up around 26*c when it exited the cooler. Will throw 2 12g packets of US-05.

I also need to engrave volume markings into the kettle, probably wont need them once i've used the rig a few times, but while im beginning it would be handy to know how much is evaporating and whats left in the kettle to go to the fermenter.

For future brews, should a beginner do a protein break every batch, low and high, or maybe just a high one, to get used to doing it, is it ok to do on all brews?, or will it wreck certain grains being held at the 72*c. Im cool with doing a high temp break, but the low side may be a PITA with a gravity fed tun, especially doing doubles into a 50l mash tun, singles may be ok.

Anyway, thanks for reading my dribble :lol:

Shaun

 

[shaunous]

Well if the beer tastes like ****, at least the eggs will be sweet.


Tried some on this lil' guy, not a big hit.

 

[fcmcg]

Well todays wrap up.

Output was a mere 26L
Post-Boil Gravity was 1.044
okay , you've got some issues ...thought you were aiming for 40 litres ? Post boil gravity is way off too...did you boil for 90 min ?

Im guessing my sparge didn't draw as much as it should have, the bed was probably 3in under the top of the liquid the whole time, and I completely drained the mash's original 25 Lt into the kettle. and rinsed another 26L around the same 64*c through it, again the water level come up higher then the bed, until it was obviously all drained off. So im not sure, the 'Mash Master gauges seem to be incorrect', it was reading 62-63*c the most of the mash, after reading 61*c for the first 15mins. I checked with my digi thermo(cheap Ebay) which was spot on several weeks ago and it read the correct 64-66*c, so again maybe it wasn't hot enough to break all the sugars out. I should have sparged with a lot hotter water also, yes??
You need to up your sparge temp.Most people sparge arpond 77 degrees..It also sounds like you were batch sparging...do some research on fly sparging.This will increase your efficiency.Did you do a ricirc after your second addition of"sparge" water ? You should ricirc untill the wort flows clear again ( this resets the grain bed).Also , is your mash insulated ? If your just recirculation without anyway to maintain/hold mash temp ( herms or rims ) you will drop temp...65 is a good starting mash temp..

I recirculated the entire time of the mash also, Mash Tun draws from under the dome and pumps back up on top into a basic T sparge arm (needs modding so its ends are capped and has many little holes along it)
When doing single batches this arm would be out of the liquid, for future uses when doing double batches, shoul I raise it so it also out, and maybe up the flow rate of the pump so the liquid it only just on the top of the bed??
Leave it under the mash water..Hot side aeration ( although it may be a myth or not) you don't want to splash it about....

Pre-boil gravity was 1.028, which again was to low, but I figured it would have come up alot higher after boil and hop additions.
Again , your mash temp has a direct correlation on this...
I need a pre-chiller before the cooler, temperature drop was only 2*c every 5-6mins, I never physically witnessed what one would call a 'cold break'.
When you say cooler..what do you mean ? A plate chiller and you won't see the cold break...it will go into your fermentor...A immersion chiller and it'll fall into the boiler...you may not see it..but its happening

After taste testing what went into the fermenter, it tastes ok, real bitter after taste, but I seem to get that in most of my home brew's lately, maybe its my taste buds after being in intensive care hooked up to heavy drugs for a couple of months just recently :huh: . I may be boiling to wildly or something, I used a fairly heavy rolling boil.
I've always been told a " nice mechanical rolling boil" You did a 90 min boil , yeah ?This also accounts for your low volume...
I need a decent grain bucket, I didn't realize how much grain physically 8kgs is, its a lot of 10l pots worth transferring to the mill :lol:

I need to set my mill, whats the norm?, I thought it was around 1.5mm, mine didn't wanna do nuttin at that, so I put it out just under 2mm, and ran the grain through twice.
What type of mill is it ? I use a monster mill and its set to .039mm..I'd hazard a guess your 2mm wasn't enough to crush the grain and thats why you also struggles with extraction...

Havnt pitched the yeast yet, still waiting for the wort to drop down to 18*c, its up around 26*c when it exited the cooler. Will throw 2 12g packets of US-05.

I also need to engrave volume markings into the kettle, probably wont need them once i've used the rig a few times, but while im beginning it would be handy to know how much is evaporating and whats left in the kettle to go to the fermenter.

For future brews, should a beginner do a protein break every batch, low and high, or maybe just a high one, to get used to doing it, is it ok to do on all brews?, or will it wreck certain grains being held at the 72*c. Im cool with doing a high temp break, but the low side may be a PITA with a gravity fed tun, especially doing doubles into a 50l mash tun, singles may be ok.
I do double batches...initially i started mashing at 65/66 degrees...72 is the temp your strike water should be before you add the grain...once your grain goes in , your temp should settle around 65..but everyone's system is different...I occasionly do step temps but i think at this stage , you have other things to concentrate on...and for a beer like Dr Smurto's golden ale , its not necessary....We all started somewhere....you have a bit of research to do to iron out some bugs but i reckon keep the faith and you'll be right...good luck

Anyway, thanks for reading my dribble :lol:

Shaun

 

[manticle]

Onya for having a go.

It's late so hopefully I'll remember to come back another time and offer some pointers from my experience but firstly I will say:

PLEASE - if there are any hops near your dog offering, be really careful. Hops are toxic for some breeds of dog - very toxic.

Hopefully that's not what you did or intended but worth pointing out for anyone who reads the thread.

I'm presuming just mash (as per the chickens)?

 

[shaunous]

I was aiming for 40L, going for a double to stock up for summer drinking, 26L is not quite 40L is it h34r:

Boiled for 90mins, yeh.
Had 50L in the boiler at pre-boil, around about that anyway, had 52L all up going through the mash, so my loss to lines and grain soak could probably well have been a fair bit more than that. Hence why i'll engrave levels into the inside of the kettle, for learning purposes.

The mill is a MonsterMill MM2, when I ran the second crack through, there was plenty of white in it, but yes, probably an illusion, I may have to somehow free up the lazy wheel, its a little stiff, when I had it around the 1.5mm make it wouldnt even let grain come though, the driven wheel just bounced the grain around the gap, even will a full hopper of 2.5-3kg of grain in it.

My strike temp from the HLT to the Tun was 74*c, and after adding the initial 20L that dropped down to 61*c, so I fired up the tun again and sent 5l of 80*c water which brought the temp up to correct mash.
As you said I never had a hot enough sparge go through.

I've checked over my notes last night and done temp corrects on the gravity readings, they have come a little better, but still not good enough.
Pre-Boil - 1.035
Post Boil - 1.044

Thanks for replying Ferg.

 

[shaunous]

Onya for having a go.

It's late so hopefully I'll remember to come back another time and offer some pointers from my experience but firstly I will say:

PLEASE - if there are any hops near your dog offering, be really careful. Hops are toxic for some breeds of dog - very toxic.

Hopefully that's not what you did or intended but worth pointing out for anyone who reads the thread.

I'm presuming just mash (as per the chickens)?

Didnt give him any hop material Manticle, only a taste of spent grain, he didnt like it. His just recently survived Pavo with no treatment, so im guessing Hops is nothing to him now Thanks for the word up though, didnt realise it'd do anything to them. Our cattle dogs eat the guts out of dead rotting Roo's when im not looking so there stomachs are probably a bit more tolerant than the usual house dog :blink:

Up at 1am on AHB, to much coffee?

 

[manticle]

No coffee. Just struggle to sleep before midnight and often later although once I'm there I sleep right through the night most nights.

Fuggles will give a very different beer (presuming it is UK fuggles - I'm not familiar with NZ) as it is quite earthy - described as mushroom, cigar or tobacco like by some.

For your mash water, go roughly 2.5-3L per kg of grain ratio, assume mash will absorb 1-1.1L of water, add deadspace (what remains behind in the tun after draining) then subtract that from your preboil volume (working backwards from desired final volume minus boiloff) and that amount should be your sparge volume.

While I'd generally think avoiding water chem for your first is probably a good KISS principle, if you are using mineral free/calcium free tank water, you may need to brush up on it sooner rather than later.

There are some brewers who make dog biscuits from spent grain but as you have chooks, you will put it to good use.

 

[fcmcg]

Got this link for you bloke....
http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/46540-monster-mill-what-gap/

 

[shaunous]

Well sounds like i've made myself some kinda creation here. I'll report back on post fermenter tasting. But before then I better put another brew down this sunday, incase this 26ltrs is terrible.

Theses chooks will eat anything, its great. And the eggs just keep popping out, that grain will last them 3-4 days, then I better throw in some laying pellets

Cheers for the advice and links men

Will report back.

Shaun.

 

[andy@67]

Wow your chooks are fairly restrained. Our 9 chooks will tear through 6 kg of spent grain in less than a couple of hours. The eggs are great though, you don't realise how good until you go away somewhere and eat commercial eggs.

Cheers,

Andrew.

 

[shaunous]

Yeh I know, have scrambled egg's ALOT from our chooks and thought nothing of it, had eggs from a cafe at coffs on saturday and realised how much better mine are.

Nah, my 6 chickens and the rooster were still going at lunchtime today, but I suppose that only 24hrs to be fair, i keep getting my days mixed up, i'll check again tomorrow arvo, we lock them in overnight so the grain just sits on the ground getting all manky like

 

[andy@67]

Ahh, ours stay out in the run at night, the neighbours all have dogs and we have two as well, so foxes have not been a problem. The chooks run is 25 m X 8 m and doubles as the vege patch. We fence off the vege beds when they are in use and open them up for the chooks to turn over and fertilise when fallow.


Cheers,

Andrew

 

[shaunous]

I have 9 cattle dogs tied up down one side of ours, but it's just been habit since I built the pen to lock them up at night.

I've never seen a fox here, and trust me I do a shitload of spotlighting, but we do gets wild dogs every now and then.

My run is fairly big to, has 2 apple tree's, a lemon tree, plum tree, mandarin tree, finger lime tree, massive china pear hanging over one side, and my personal favourite a 100+ year old grape vine! which I saved a few years ago and have seen cloned 4 times in other spots. Most of the tree's are young other then the grape, orange, china pear and plum but are spaced accordingly as permanent.

I might start letting them out at night and see if they lay better, only getting on average 4 eggs a day and all nesting in the one box, even though I've built them 12. Fence is 6ft but is only chicken wire. Original farm chicken pen was built like a castle, but the old man bulldozed it for a shed.


Why the *** am I awake past midnight talking about chickens????

 

[manticle]

Because chickens are awesome. I don't have any of my own but next door neighbour and a couple of close relatives do and I get more eggs than myself or my partner can eat.

Totally different to commercial (even organic free range commercial), haven't bought eggs in years.