Summer Ale - First AG - 3V System

[shaunous]

Haha, suppose they are awesome.

Next in the bird family will be Quails, grandfather in-law breeds them and eats them heaps so his keen to pass on his legacy of breeding and eating ground birds to me. Wouldn't mind the annoying old Guinea Fowls for entertainment either.

 

[manticle]

Guinea fowls are great just because of their squeaky wheel sound. Never eaten one but had plenty of quail. Small, fiddly and not a lot of meat but damn delicious. Like langoustine* in that regard - pain to prepare but worth the effort.


*Not like langoustine in any other way.

 

[shaunous]

You should see the grandfather in-laws backyard in town, his got a little space in the middle for a clothes line, taken up the rest is cages and cages of quail, and in his shed is incubators for quail eggs, hundreds of the fuckers.

Anyway, back on topic! Haha

I've worked out I lose about a 1l of wort on transfer to the kettle' and kettle to the fermenter (my set-up has the cooler in the middle so the wort goes through it to the kettle and also when I'm recirculating the kettle to cool I get what's in the lines back, but again the last bit is always there).
The other day there was close to 2l in the bottom of the kettle that was all hops material that's not worth transferring.
and you reckon I should account for about a litre of Loss in soakage in the spent grain, would I double this to 2l for a double batch?
So about 4-5l gone from the fermenter before boiling?

I now have to work out my evaporation rates.

 

[mkstalen]

For your first AG you've certainly jumped in the deep end crushing your own grain, using a recirc mash that's lots of variables to consider.

Can you better describe your rig?

What's your kettle powered by? Electric what wattage? gas?

My kettle is a 40L pot with twin 2400W elements, and I get an evaporation rate of about 14% over 60 minutes.

Are you using any kind of brewing software for your calculations? Most of them have variables for evap rates, loss to trub, chiller, cooling etc etc.

 

[shaunous]

I dabbled with brew mate, but I need to custom my figures in it obviously, which I don't know, or didn't know as it was my first brew.

My set up is a 3v system, HLT is heated by gas, and gravity fed to Mash Tun, custom dome bottom with recirc, my kettle is an 18gal keg which is also gas fired.

 

[manticle]

and you reckon I should account for about a litre of Loss in soakage in the spent grain, would I double this to 2l for a double batch?

Doesn't matter whether double or single - the rate is the same. Approx 1 L per kilo of grain so obviously more total if there is more total grain but the ratio is the same. Only need to calculate this once - after the mash, the grain is theoretically saturated and won't take in any from the sparge.

Remember for boiloff/evaporation - if you calculate that you lose 10 L per hour in a 30 L preboil volume batch, you will still lose 10 L per hour in a 60 L pre-boil volume batch (provided the gas/heat is the same and you are using the same kettle, etc).

The above looks good for loss calcs.

I don't have HERMS set up so I'm not the best person to answer but I know some people do recirc the whole way and get crystal clear wort.

I always mashout - not for efficiency but because I step mash to control the profile so the mash-out fixes that profile in place (enzymes are denatured by the mash out). For my mash out, I hit 78 for 10.

 

[shaunous]

Arrrrrrrr ok I didn't read you right, 1l per kg of grain. Gotcha.

 

[shaunous]

Right0, so I'm into my mash process which is normally 60mins, during that mash process should I recirculate the entire time I'm mashing, as this is what I thought would be better (same theory as pump over on red wine during maceration), as long as that temp doesn't get below 64*c, or worst case 61*c.

OR having read a little here, some people don't do this, they only recirc to sparge, even though the capability is there to do it the entire time, WHY?

Why do people not mash-out? You have to/should raise the temp of the mash with heated water for a good sparge anyway, not much less than 74*c but no higher than 77*c. Why not hold the mash process an extra 10mins if it's going to give you better efficiency?

Just making sure I'm understanding this all properly before my 2nd AG brew this Sunday.

If I were to start my mash with 2.5 litres of water to the kilo of grain, mash for the 60mins recirculating the entire time, before I get to the 60min mark I've heated the water in my HLT again to a point that it'll hit the grain and stay at 74*c, let that sit/recirculate a further 10mins. THEN transfer to the kettle where I'll add enough water again to be left with after boil evap (if I've done my calculations right) the right amount of wort to hit my fermenter.

I have my wanted batch size and work back from;
Loss left in cooler
trub loss in kettle
Evaporation water during boil
Loss left in pump and lines from MLT to Kettle
Soakage from spent grain

Am I missing anything! and again! thanks for reading

Cheers,
Shaun

 

[shaunous]

Hello!

 

[Camo6]

Haven't read the whole thread but I take it you don't have a herms or rims setup? If you don't then you're gonna lose a lot of heat while recirculating and your mash temps will be up shite creek. It would have the opposite effect of a herms/rims as you'd be transferring all that energy to the surrounding environment unless everything was very well insulated.
With 3v setups I imagine it's a lot easier for some to skip the mashout step at the slight cost of efficiency. If you have a herms/rims it's too easy not to skip it.
Gotta go watch TMNT with my eldest but will peruse this thread later.
cheers

 

[shaunous]

So what I really should be doing is;

Add grain to Mash Tun
Gravity feed hot water at a temp that'll settle in the Mash tun at 66*c (or whatever the recipe calls)
let that sit as you would a standard mash
NOW

Mash
Mash-Out
Recirc
Drain to Kettle
Sparge while recirculating
Transfer that to Kettle also

OR

Mash
Mash-Out
Drain to Kettle
Add Sparge Water
Recirc
Transfer to kettle

Just not postive when I should be recirculating that's all
And also, how do I know when to stop with this system, its not like previously I've sparged with 78*c water through a colander, easy to tell then as the water turns clear. Obviously recirc system the sparge will never get clear.
Is it just a time thing? recirc long periods and shorten up until my efficiency drops?

 

[shaunous]

My way of thinking is as long as your mash isn't dropping in temperature below min 61*c you'd recirc your little heart out????

 

[shaunous]

Any Thoughts?

Will put another brew down on Wednesday hopefully.

 

[manticle]

Recirc before draining. You are dropping out any grain husks and various bits of protein through recircing. The point is to avoid getting that stuff in the kettle.

 

[shaunous]

Yeh, I done that right at least last time.

So you reckon just recirc for maybe 5mins at the end of a 60min mash, drain to kettle, sparge/from HLT while recirculating again for another 5mins, then drain to kettle.

Top up kettle with determined pre-boil volume
OR
Continue Sparging from HLT until pre-boil volume is met to take advantage of sucking every little ferment able from the grains

THEN
Feed chickens spent grain

 

[Yob]

stop sparging at 1010

 

[shaunous]

stop sparging at 1010

AM or PM

Ok then, so I should hurry the purchase of a refrac along so I'm not continually fukin around with a hydrometer while mashing.

Thanx men

P.s. Just got ya delivery confirm on the hops Yob,

 

[manticle]

Or check pH.

If you calculate right, you should be able to be in the ballpark pH/gravity at the volume you want.

Recirc till the wort is clear or at least free of visible husks and less cloudy than when you first run off. If recircing with a pump, you should be able to get pretty clear.

 

[shaunous]

So pH can really be that big of a problem ey?

I better do some reading and get a pH meter.

 

[manticle]

pH is important for a variety of reasons. pH of the mash is important but also sparge water and wort itself. Oversparging is one cause of astringency from tannins and it is pH related although as Yob said, you can use gravity as an indicator.