Sulphate Question

[nabs478]

I have recently brewed a Little Creatures Bright Ale clone.

I live in Melbourne and carbon filter my water, so my base water is fairly clean. I have been adjusting my water according to an article I found online (http://melbournebrewers.org/wiki/TonyWheeler?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=Key+Concepts+in+Water+Treatment.pdf).

On suplhate, it reads the following...

4.1 Sulphate SO42-

Noonan: Gives beer a dry, fuller flavour, although the taste can be exceptionally sharp. With sodium andmagnesium, it is cathartic (purgative). Above 500ppm it is strongly bitter, and levels are generally kept atless than 150ppm unless the beer is very highly hopped. With intensely bitter beers, sulphate at 150-350ppm gives a cleaner, more piquant bitterness. Increasing amounts of sulphate give a cleaner hopflavour. Well hopped beers brewed with gypsiferous liquor commonly exhibit a finer, less coarsebitterness than is obtained with other liquor profiles.

Fix: High sulphate levels and dark beers are not a particularly good marriage. The effects are a dryingand astringent afterfinish.

Summary: Appropriate in pale, hoppy, bitter beers to give a cleaner hop flavour and bitterness, eg. IPA,Pale Ales, German Pilsener, or any pale beer where a drier crisper finish is being sought, perhaps aDortmunder or a Tripel. Sulphate would be inappropriate in a Bohemian Pilsener where a soft roundedbitterness is desirable. Sulphate is to be avoided altogether in dark beers.

With a beer like LCBA, it is very hoppy, but not very bitter. I adjusted my sulphate to about 100ppm (not wanting any hint of harsh bitterness) and my Calcium to about 100pm using CaCl2. I have found the bitterness in my beer to be too rounded, when something a little sharper is what I am after. I also find the hop flavour to be too dull, or rounded is again probably a good descriptive term, and needs sharpening up. I was originally concerned with going into the sulphate range of 150-350ppm as it is proceeded by 'With intensly bitter beers...', but I am sure that I have not got enough in there at the moment.

I could get it right by trial and error, but hoping someone can help out using prior experience so I can get it right nect time.

Thanks

 

[Quintrex]

I think adjusting water is great, however sometimes you just have to tweak the recipe to how you like it. why not just try upping both your bittering addition and flameout addition.

What did you adjust your sulfate with? Mag. Sulfate or Calcium Sulfate?

If you used Mag. Sulfate, try getting some calcium sulfate and adjust using that?
If you used calcium sulfate, try dropping the calcium chloride and just use the calcium sulfate to get where you want in regards to calcium levels.
I'm pretty sure there is something to do with the ratio of chloride vs sulfate ions that influences the flavour perception, John Palmer spoke about this in melbourne at ANHC.

 

[nabs478]

I have been using CaS04. I realise that I could modify the recipe or try other things, but I am really most interested in the effect of sulphate ions on the flavour and bitterness from the hops.

I have heard other talk about Chloride sulphate ratio, and I am interested in that too, if anyone has any info.

 

[katzke]

One of the Aussie brew radio shows talked about the ratios. Basically Chloride to Sulfate ratios work like this.

2 to 1 for malty beers 1 to 2 for bitter beers.

Set calcium at 50-100 ppm then the ratio you want.

Make sure you do not blow past the recommended maximum values when setting the ratio.

Remember the ratio will not help if the recipe is off. I did a brew and set it to enhance the bitterness. Every ones comment was on how malty it was. Not an experimenter but wonder how it would have tasted if I went the other way.

 

[drsmurto]

Hi Pip

Problem as i see it (and this wont solve your bitterness issue, its about what levels of salts you actually have as opposed to what you think you have)

You start with Melbourne tap water which i assume you have a chemical profile for as a 5 year average.

Then you carbon filter it.

What exactly is this doing to your water? Do you test the resulting water?

Are you calculating your additions based on levels of Ca and SO4 of 0 ppm?

You seem to be making the assumption that the carbon filter is stripping everything from tap water when it wont. It will remove chlorine (not chloride) and chloramines. What you are left with profile wise will still be the same melbourne tap water you started with.

Chemistry lesson over, back to your question....

As for the bitterness issue, i took Adelaide tap water and added CaSO4 to achieve ~ 100ppm of Ca and 150ppm of SO4. This was for a big IPA (60ish IBU) and i find the bitterness has been accentuated but not over the top so. Its a very flavoursome beer but you'd expect that with 100g of NZ flowers from 20 mins to 0 in only 14L. :super:

 

[Fourstar]

150 ppm in my AIPA wasn't enough. For giggles i upped it to 220ppm for my ESB (from memory). I think my Chloride was 70ppm . Hop profile was allot deeper/sharp and malt presence still there.

I think 200-250 will be my standard for any 35+IBU beers requesting Hop character

 

[nabs478]

I have checked out the average water profiles for various resevoirs around melbourne, but it was about a year ago. I realise that carbon filtering will not remove ions important for brewing, but the levels of the different ions present that are important, when compared to the amount you might want, are very low. So my quoted levels of my ions are out a bit, but it wouldnt by by more than 10%. I am not trying to adjust my water to be perfect to the nearest 1ppm...or 10ppm for that mater, but just hoping for some ball park to aim for on my next brew.

Might try and find some info on the chloride to sulphate ratios on the net.

Thanks for your help.