Mimosa brut IPA questions

[Sleepy Weasel]

I've been brewing almost exclusively IPAs since I started back last October, as a lockdown hobby. All grain, using a Grainfather 30L and matching SS conical. So far, I'm very happy with the results, but I feel the need to be a little bit more adventurous. I do love me some hazy, juicy IPA, though, so... baby steps.
I don't know if any of you caught it, but Dainton put out a Mimosa one-off brew last year. It was shockingly close to the flavour of an actual mimosa, but clearly still a beer. My future son in law freakin' loved it, so I'm hoping I can get close enough to the original to give him a treat. If it's a hit, I'll also brew a batch of it to serve at the much-delayed (thanks, COVID) wedding.
The base is a brut IPA, and I have the enzymes in the fridge to create that. But I'm a little stuck for ideas about the orange, and there is a stupid amount of orange in the original. I figure I can get part way with hops. Maybe Citra, Mandarina Bavaria, Amarillo... something. But I'll also need a buttload of some form of adjunct/s. I can slice the zest off some oranges, but I suspect I'll need to use some actual juice - probably filtered to remove the pulp. Might need to reduce it on the stove to create a concentrated hit without too much water volume? Not sure.
And that's where I'm stuck. I need a juice bomb here but I don't know enough yet to get over the line. I also don't know at what point in the process I should add the adjuncts. Presumably post-fermentation along with dry hops? But for how long?
Anyway, I'm throwing myself on your mercy. Any advice will be received with gratitude.
The beer in question...

 

[MHB]

Not a beer that interests me, but if you are going to use orange juice I would avoid cooking it. There will be flavour changes that might not go the way you plan.
Aldi have an Orange Juice concentrate, 500mL makes 2 L so it’s pretty intense. Woollies have something similar but I think it has passionfruit and the Aldi one tastes better, less pithy, might be worth a go.
Mark

 

[Sleepy Weasel]

Not a beer that interests me, but if you are going to use orange juice I would avoid cooking it. There will be flavour changes that might not go the way you plan.
Aldi have an Orange Juice concentrate, 500mL makes 2 L so it’s pretty intense. Woollies have something similar but I think it has passionfruit and the Aldi one tastes better, less pithy, might be worth a go.
Mark

Thanks, Mark, I'll scout out the Aldi concentrate. I'll admit that I was a little worried about changes in the OJ flavour from reduction. When I first envisioned the idea of replicating this beer, I had in mind to use one of the commercial essences, but I'm seeing comments around the web that have put me off that notion.

 

[duncbrewer]

Is the finished beer super dry? or does it have body?
Sodastream and some independent companies might have an orange concentrate worth testing.

I made a Brut NEIPA and that was an adventure and a half for a beer style I'm not that keen on. But the beer needed back sweetening with Monk Fruit extract to give it some body. If you add enzyme to the fermenter you will find the enzyme works on any fruit sugars you add later, so they won't provide sweetness.
Adding enzyme only to the mash may mean you don't get full conversion and get a semi brut.
The grain bill won't be very big for this beer as you are aiming for 1.000

I normally add enzyme one packet to the mash and one packet to the fermenter.

I have no idea about the fruit and it's effects though it's something I haven't tried in a beer.

 

[Sleepy Weasel]

Is the finished beer super dry? or does it have body?
Sodastream and some independent companies might have an orange concentrate worth testing.

I made a Brut NEIPA and that was an adventure and a half for a beer style I'm not that keen on. But the beer needed back sweetening with Monk Fruit extract to give it some body. If you add enzyme to the fermenter you will find the enzyme works on any fruit sugars you add later, so they won't provide sweetness.
Adding enzyme only to the mash may mean you don't get full conversion and get a semi brut.
The grain bill won't be very big for this beer as you are aiming for 1.000

I normally add enzyme one packet to the mash and one packet to the fermenter.

I have no idea about the fruit and it's effects though it's something I haven't tried in a beer.

As I recall it, the beer was pretty damned dry, but balanced by the orange. Body isn't really a feature of bruts, after all. Nor of champagne. The Sodastream concentrate idea might be worth pursuing. There are some fine craft syrups being made by independent suppliers. I'll check it out.
I can see that this one is definitely going to be the challenge I'm looking for. I just hope I don't end up tossing too many batches before I get it right.
Thanks, Dunc.

 

[duncbrewer]

As I recall it, the beer was pretty damned dry, but balanced by the orange. Body isn't really a feature of bruts, after all. Nor of champagne. The Sodastream concentrate idea might be worth pursuing. There are some fine craft syrups being made by independent suppliers. I'll check it out.
I can see that this one is definitely going to be the challenge I'm looking for. I just hope I don't end up tossing too many batches before I get it right.
Thanks, Dunc.

Might be able to track something down from this manufacturer
https://www.brewshop.co.nz/amoretti-artisan-natural-flavours.html
Damm expensive though one bottle per 38 litres basically a dollar a litre for this.

First brut ipa I made was superdry like champagne, made it with citra and sauvin and after a while it really was like a sparkling wine in taste.

The NEIPA was a lo cal version hence back sweetened so it wasn't a brut neipa thank goodness.

 

[Sleepy Weasel]

Might be able to track something down from this manufacturer
https://www.brewshop.co.nz/amoretti-artisan-natural-flavours.html
Damm expensive though one bottle per 38 litres basically a dollar a litre for this.

First brut ipa I made was superdry like champagne, made it with citra and sauvin and after a while it really was like a sparkling wine in taste.

The NEIPA was a lo cal version hence back sweetened so it wasn't a brut neipa thank goodness.

Tanks Dunc, that looks like it might be a good option. Honestly not too fussed about the cost in this instance. I'm more interested in getting a good result. And yeah, I've been slowly inclining to winey flavour hops and just getting the orange from the adjuncts.

 

[duncbrewer]

You might be able to just brew the Brut IPA with hops that work and then add that stuff at the kegging stage. Firsty brew a batch or several some fermented with this in and some without, keg it then put a volume of flavour in the glass and top up with beer to notice the effect and dial in the amount you need for the kegging stage.
Probably a better tactic than lobbing it in earlier and you might find you get a much fresher flavour that way. The flavouring will be pasteurised at least and if it finally went into a cold keg and a closed transfer of brut ipa onto it drunk at the wedding doubt there will be any deterioration.
Usually Brut ipa no hops with any heat on and added at flameout at the earliest, mostly whirlpool and dry hop.

Just looked up a Mimosa and it's what we'd call a Bucks fizz in the UK.

 

[Sleepy Weasel]

You might be able to just brew the Brut IPA with hops that work and then add that stuff at the kegging stage. Firsty brew a batch or several some fermented with this in and some without, keg it then put a volume of flavour in the glass and top up with beer to notice the effect and dial in the amount you need for the kegging stage.
Probably a better tactic than lobbing it in earlier and you might find you get a much fresher flavour that way. The flavouring will be pasteurised at least and if it finally went into a cold keg and a closed transfer of brut ipa onto it drunk at the wedding doubt there will be any deterioration.
Usually Brut ipa no hops with any heat on and added at flameout at the earliest, mostly whirlpool and dry hop.

Just looked up a Mimosa and it's what we'd call a Bucks fizz in the UK.

Bucks Fizz? So you're in/from the UK. We used to imaginatively call it "champagne and orange", but the American term has enriched our language.
Adding it in the keg after an initial titration sounds like an excellent plan. It's not like a syrup needs to steep in the brew. In fact, a some people apparently make "beermosas" by adding OJ to an IPA.

 

[duncbrewer]

Bucks Fizz? So you're in/from the UK. We used to imaginatively call it "champagne and orange", but the American term has enriched our language.
Adding it in the keg after an initial titration sounds like an excellent plan. It's not like a syrup needs to steep in the brew. In fact, a some people apparently make "beermosas" by adding OJ to an IPA.

More like out of UK at the moment and since pre covid. Was planning on trip to Melb GP in 2020 and we decided to pull the plug on Sunday and then they cancelled on the Friday. Dang it.
Secret to a good Bucks fizz, cheap champagne / sparkling and expensive or quality OJ. Maybe the way to go for the wedding in fact, draught Brut IPA add a shot in the glass of flavour or hybrid a worked out mix and then add to great OJ in the glass. Interesting.

 

[Sleepy Weasel]

More like out of UK at the moment and since pre covid. Was planning on trip to Melb GP in 2020 and we decided to pull the plug on Sunday and then they cancelled on the Friday. Dang it.
Secret to a good Bucks fizz, cheap champagne / sparkling and expensive or quality OJ. Maybe the way to go for the wedding in fact, draught Brut IPA add a shot in the glass of flavour or hybrid a worked out mix and then add to great OJ in the glass. Interesting.

The wife and I managed to get to the UK for a holiday in late 2019, which was pretty damned good timing. Such a picturesque place.
As for mixing the beer and OJ, that might be a practical solution, but it doesn't provide me with much opportunity to show off, does it?

 

[duncbrewer]

I assumed that the beer was a NEIPA so orange juice coloured in the glass, but is it clear and juicy?

 

[Sleepy Weasel]

I assumed that the beer was a NEIPA so orange juice coloured in the glass, but is it clear and juicy?

Yes, it's a NEIPA, but as these things go, it's a relatively clear drop (see pic below). I'm not married to clarity, and would never usually add Whirlfloc to my usual brews, but for this one, I might.
My memory of the beer has faded with time, but the glass in the pic doesn't look too frosty, I would guess the slight cloudiness shown is a combination of a slight haze and some condensation, and possibly the OJ.

 

[duncbrewer]

Certainly doesn't look like the only hazy I made ( mentioned above a brut diet neipa) .

Water profile to get those hop and fruit flavours will also promote haze.

Given that you want to show off ( and why not ) add some clarity ferm to the fermenter, helps with chill haze, but also almost eliminates gluten so you can call it nearly gluten free.
Use Super F if you want to fine it and you'll be vegan as well.

 

[Sleepy Weasel]

That's a very handsome beer, Dunc, and you must have read my mind, because my future SIL, most of his family and my daughter are all vegan, and his mother is Coeliac, but she won't drink beer. I also have a glutard neighbour, but she won't want "almost" GF. She drinks O'Brien's and TwoBays instead.
But am I missing something here? I'm pretty sure Whirlfloc is also vegan, since it's made from seaweed. I know there are some wine finings that are made using fish swim bladders, but Whirlfloc should be OK, Shirley?

 

[duncbrewer]

Thanks for the plaudit, brew club thought the beer was great. You could go down the Hazy route and you'd really get that Mimosa / bucks fizz look.

Whirfloc is from seaweed that's a kettle fining, not sure there are any non vegan ones of those.

Re Clarity ferm depends how you define gluten free data sheet here suggests it sort of is a way of making it " gluten free ". But has useful other effects as well so worth a try at some stage for you. Especially as good for chill haze and if you ever did the beer naked without the juice you want it super clear.

https://whitelabs.com/public/uploads/ckeditor/602704ba53e851613169850.pdf
I think it's only gelatin ( beef usually ) and isinglass ( fish ) that are not veggie / vegan friendly.

Website packed with gluten free brewing recipes, not tried to make one yet but I enjoy a challenge. Trouble is you do need enzymes for full gluten free but
that's not the end of the world.

https://www.glutenfreehomebrewing.com/recipes/showrecipe.php?recipeid=216
As far as Brut IPA you do want a super fermentable wort. By accident / happnestance making a smoked porter aiming for 1087 but got 1081 to fermenter.
Malt pipe I took off the guten and left to drain ( over a ferment bucket as it's a perfect fit ) after mashout and sparge and got about 3.5 litres of 1051 so I thought might try a partigyle and poured another 4.5 litres of boiling water from the kettle over it. Following morning as this was an evening brew I had 9.5 litres at 1071 in the bottom and boiled for half hour and hopped and then transferred to a small fermenter 8.5 litres at 1077.
Threw some kveik in and warmed it up. 3 days later it's at 1.005 without enzyme, I'll get a final gravity check with hydrometer later as it does'nt look quite finished, but the spindel was newly calibrated so I'm pretty sure the reading will be very close. Original recipe was meant to finish at 1.024 and we'll see what happens to that ferment in the fridge at 13 c with lager yeast chugging along from 1081 and now at 1.048.
Note I did mash at 64 and then mashout at 76 for the first batch. Which did seem a low temp to mash at given the intended high final gravity of 1.024.

 

[Sleepy Weasel]

Thanks again for that, Dunc. As it happens, Two Bays also sell GF all grain kits. They can get a little pricey, but still cheaper than buying beer.

Sadly, I don't have time this weekend to do a full brew day, so I'm going to bung a fresh wort kit in the Fermzilla instead. My first cheat day. I went straight into all grain brewing without first trying a kit or extract, but needs must when the devil drives, eh? I've chosen All Inn Brewing's Stronghold Assassin double IPA for the purpose.

 

[MHB]

Whirlfloc is vegan, it’s made from seaweed. Unlike Isinglass from fish swim bladders or Gelatine from hooves, horns or animal skin (mostly pigs)

Kettle finings are always a good thing to use as what they help remove are high molecular weight protein/polyphenol complexes that aren’t a benefit in any style of beer.
Mark