Sufactant Mixer For Phosphoric Acid

[tribalfish]

G'day all,

Have just got hold of some 85% phosphoric acid.
After searching this forum, I have come up with the fact that I need to dilute it to around 2%.
Also I have read that you need to add something to make it adhere to hard surfaces better (more thorough contact)
There is a chemical called LABS acid which is basically the pure form of the main ingredient in detergent.
Not sure where I would get something like LABS acid. Does anybody know what else I would mix with my diluted phosphoric acid that won't affect it's No Rinse properties?

Thanks, TF

 

[tribalfish]

BUMP


G'day all,

Have just got hold of some 85% phosphoric acid.
After searching this forum, I have come up with the fact that I need to dilute it to around 2%.
Also I have read that you need to add something to make it adhere to hard surfaces better (more thorough contact)
There is a chemical called LABS acid which is basically the pure form of the main ingredient in detergent.
Not sure where I would get something like LABS acid. Does anybody know what else I would mix with my diluted phosphoric acid that won't affect it's No Rinse properties?

Thanks, TF

 

[TidalPete]

I use an old syringe to add 2ml phos\1litre water to which I then add one drop of dish washing detergent as a surfactant.

TP

 

[drsmurto]

Same as TP here.

The last few batches i added a few too many drops of the surfactant and it carried thru to the beer with a lovely soapy taste.

Since winding it back to 1 drop per 20L mix i make its all good.

 

[FNQ Bunyip]

hey TF , I use phos acid as my no rince @ 1.5ml to 1lt water .. so 30ml in a cube of water and I have all the no rince for a brewday mixed and ready too go ..

if you come up with a sufactant I might be interested but it works without no probs..

cheers

 

[muckanic]

Not that I have tried it, but lecithin is a surfactant that has the advantage of being organic. But then again I'd rather risk the bugs in hot rinse water than surfactant residue in my brew.

 

[tribalfish]

Thanks guys

Good 'ol Palmolive had crossed my mind, but was worried about dish washy taste :icon_vomit:
Will give it a go and try not to be too heavy handed.
Syringe is a great idea also.

Thanks heaps. TF.

 

[Ross]

Same as TP here.

The last few batches i added a few too many drops of the surfactant and it carried thru to the beer with a lovely soapy taste.

Since winding it back to 1 drop per 20L mix i make its all good.

It amazes me that you risk lost brews by making up homemade sanitisers with washing up liquid.
There are specially formulated non-rinse sanitisers complete with surfactants that work out at approx $0.05c a litre - why would you bother?


cheers Ross

 

[T.D.]

Basically you just need some kind of wetting agent. I would imagine these come in all shapes and sizes, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if there were quite a few out there that didn't have any taste/scent etc.

TF, its great to see people trying new things like this. I don't imagine it would be very difficult at all to come up with a very simple formula that is probably better and cheaper that what we all currently use.

 

[drsmurto]

It amazes me that you risk lost brews by making up homemade sanitisers with washing up liquid.
There are specially formulated non-rinse sanitisers complete with surfactants that work out at approx $0.05c a litre - why would you bother?


cheers Ross

Why?

I can.

The MSDS of the products you sell are a tad vague (trade secrets) but its not hard for a scientist to figure out how and why they work and then replicate them.

I am currently sourcing a pure form of the surfactants used in the Starsan range and once available, will let people know.

Cheers
DrSmurto

p.s. Ross - i do it because i enjoy the experiments. others on here build stuff and share that knowledge, i cant contribute in that what as i cant tell one end of a hammer from the other. I'm at not allowed near welding equipment. So i share the knowledge i do have.

 

[Ross]

TF, its great to see people trying new things like this. I don't imagine it would be very difficult at all to come up with a very simple formula that is probably better and cheaper that what we all currently use.

Have to disagree on this one - Homebrewers handling things like 85% Phos acid is an accident waiting to happen! These chemicals are extremely dangerous to handle, let alone mixing with proprietary brand detergents etc..... & to save what... 4c a brew!!!
It's the same with Caustic - It does not belong in the average hombrewers inventory.

My 2c worth...

Cheers Ross

Edit: P.S. At the homebrewers conference last year I heard one homebrewer confessing to accidently producing Chlorine gas in one of his concoctions, thankfully he was unharmed, he could have been killed.

 

[fraser_john]

Ross,

your estimate of $0.04/brew, is that assuming you ditch the solution when done? I make my starsan mix up and continue to use it till it starts to go cloudy. One litre mixed up lasts me six or seven brews, sanitising four cubes/carboys each brew for multiple rackings etc.

But like the Dr. says, he does it for the experiment and knowledge, but I am like him, in that I am not allowed near full strength chemicals, hell I cannot even climb a ladder onto the roof of the house without falling off (true story) or use an angle grinder without getting a sliver in my eye (another true story). There are probably more reasons to keep me away from stong chemicals as well, but now I am looking like a klutz.

John

 

[Ross]

Why?

I can.

The MSDS of the products you sell are a tad vague (trade secrets) but its not hard for a scientist to figure out how and why they work and then replicate them.

I am currently sourcing a pure form of the surfactants used in the Starsan range and once available, will let people know.

Cheers
DrSmurto

p.s. Ross - i do it because i enjoy the experiments. others on here build stuff and share that knowledge, i cant contribute in that what as i cant tell one end of a hammer from the other. I'm at not allowed near welding equipment. So i share the knowledge i do have.

Fair enough DrS & I guess you are reasonably qualified to be handling dangerous chemicals - I just worry when I see people being actively encouraged to handle/mix bloody dangerous chemicals when there really is no need. Safe, cheap, sterilisers available from many sources.

cheers Ross

Edit: FJ, Yes...was working on single use figures, as you point out the factual cost can be much less.

 

[warrenlw63]

Have to disagree on this one - Homebrewers handling things like 85% Phos acid is an accident waiting to happen! These chemicals are extremely dangerous to handle, let alone mixing with proprietary brand detergents etc..... & to save what... 4c a brew!!!
It's the same with Caustic - It does not belong in the average hombrewers inventory.

C'mon Ross if you really believed that you wouldn't be selling DIY 240v toys (Fridgemates). Electrocution is just as bad. That being said I love my Fridgemate. :lol:

Like everything. There's always a duty of care.

Warren -

 

[TidalPete]

It amazes me that you risk lost brews by making up homemade sanitisers with washing up liquid.
There are specially formulated non-rinse sanitisers complete with surfactants that work out at approx $0.05c a litre - why would you bother?


cheers Ross

Rossco,

I have been using phos for 4 years now & have completed 89 AG brews without mishap.
Like fraser_john I reuse my phos over & over & still have over 4 litres of the 5 litres I purchased four years ago ---- Enough to last me 16 more years at the present usage rate.

Dangerous chemical???? Every dairy farmer in Australia uses this (Or something similar) on a daily basis.

TP

 

[T.D.]

Yeah, I think a little bit of common sense needs to prevail here Ross. Clearly you should only be using chemicals like this if you are comfortable doing so. I've been using peracetic acid for years and have had no issues. I just wear gloves and take care when diluting it. And obviously keep it well away from anybody else around who may not know what it is. Simple common sense procedure.

We all stand around 30+ litres of boiling wort on brew days, naked gas flames, HLTs full of 80deg water, and DIY electrical devices as Warren said. There are risks in brewing, which I must say I think we all do a reasonable job of managing. By your logic we should all just quit and go and buy a case from the local bottlo!

 

[Ross]

C'mon Ross if you really believed that you wouldn't be selling DIY 240v toys (Fridgemates). Electrocution is just as bad. That being said I love my Fridgemate. :lol:

Like everything. There's always a duty of care.

Warren -

Not the same at all - We recommend you get a qualified electrician to install. The Fridgemate on it's own is not dangerous.

Anyway, I think some maybe missing the point here. I was just pointing out that there is little (financial) need to be handling/storing dangerous chemicals at home to make up homebrand sanitisers. If you are comfortable & knowledgable on handling chemicals & are a bit of the home scientist, then go for it

Cheers Ross

 

[T.D.]

Not the same at all - We recommend you get a qualified electrician to install. The Fridgemate on it's own is not dangerous.

A sealed bottle of phosphoric acid on its own is also totally harmless. Its when you start to use it that some potential danger arises. Same with the Fridgemate.

But like your disclaimer for the Fridgemate, I think there is an implicit understanding here that you need to know what you're doing before dealing with these chemicals.

 

[Batz]

I use an old syringe to add 2ml phos\1litre water to which I then add one drop of dish washing detergent as a surfactant.

TP

Pete if you are using 'Eliminate' it already has a surfactant added.

Not the same at all - We recommend you get a qualified electrician to install.

You've got to be joking Ross,don't you read the threads here?How many brewers used a qualified electrician?
Same with chemicals is it not,read the instructions and MSDS,wear the correct protection and handle as instructed.

Same same

Batz

 

[TidalPete]

Pete if you are using 'Eliminate' it already has a surfactant added.
Batz

I am getting senile in my old age Batz. I read about that on another thread ages ago & promptly forgot all about it.
Goodbye drop of dishwashing detergent.

TP