Substituting Malts

[thuperman]

Usually when I read a recipe that calls for Maris Otter or American 2-row, I just sub in the Barrett Burston Ale Malt that I have. However, I'm looking at a recipe that calls for both 2-row and MO.

I have BB Ale, Wey Pils, Wey Vienna, Wey Munich I and Wey Rye. Wondering if subbing the 2-row for pilsner and MO for Ale would do the trick or if just using BB Ale for the lot would work. If it is going to be vastly different, I can buy some American 2-row and MO from the LHBS.

Cheers.
:beer:

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Just go BB with a touch of Munich

Depending on what the recipe is, you wont notice much of a difference.


MO is a specific variety of malt and has distinct flavours. The other malts are generally made from generic grains and are not specific varieties

 

[SBOB]

regardless of what you use, its not going to be the same as the original 2-row/MO recipe... so why not just try making it with 100% BB Ale.. or maybe BB Ale and some Vienna or Munich to try and get some of the MO 'characteristics' that are lacking from 2-row/ale malt

After all..regardless what you use, its likely still going to turn out being beer

 

[thuperman]

Thanks gents! There's a bit of Munich in it already (and a touch of Crystal), so I'll just combine the 2R and MO as BB Ale. Just wanted to check that it wouldn't make a huge difference. Cheers!

 

[manticle]

All the malt you'll buy here will be 2-row.
In the US, 6 row and 2 row are both available. Something like briess pale would be ideal but any pale malt should do. Maris is nice, bit biscuity but basically a kind of type of pale ale malt*.

*actually a variety of barley so technically can be kilned to any level but usually available as a pale ale malt.

 

[klangers]

Yeah, as Manticle says Maris Otter is an English breed of barley. Hence often called for in English ales.

It is being phased out due to poor agricultural performance compared to modern strains, but many traditional recipes still call for it.

I've brewed the same recipe with and without Maris Otter and I've definitely noticed the difference. That said, one trial isn't exactly scientific.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

You could throw a bit of biscuit malt in there to get a MO like flavour

 

[thuperman]

Thanks for all of the info, guys.

I do understand that most (all) malt that we get is 2-row and that MO is an English variety. I guess my question was more about the differences in flavour between an American 2-row, Aussie BB Ale and English MO. Also, I probably should've included the full grain bill from the recipe:

49% US 2R
39% MO
7% CaraMunich I
5% Munich I

It's for a Firestone Walker Pale 31 quasi-clone. I'd like something close to the correct flavour but, really, I'm just after a good tasting beer that resembles the 31 (obviously the hops will play a key role).

I think from the advice that I've received so far, I'll probably just make it 88% BB Ale and see how that turns out (unless the crowd think this will be a fair way off the original recipe). I can always adjust the next time around.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

It more comes down to how it is germinated and kilned, rather than the variety. The same barley can make Pilsner, Ale, Pale, Vienna, Munich etc.

There are very subtle differences but you wont notice them generally. Note that the darker the base malt the less diastatic power it will have. Munich is right on the edge of just having enough diastatic power to convert.

MO is slightly different as it is a particular variety that is kilned a certain way ( the same way that all malts are kilned, just different times & temps, basically )


BB malt is a really good malt for diastatic power

 

[Spiesy]

Whilst it is right than pretty much all the grain we have in Australia is 2-row, when an American recipe calls for "2-row" it is generally for a specific type of 2-row malt. Case in point; Briess, one of the biggest American malsters, offers both Pale Ale and 2-Row Malt. Both are technically "2-Row", but the grain they call 2-Row is very pale in colour, highly friable and has high diastatic powers and is more flavour neutral (less malt character).

If you don't have or can't get American 2-row, pilsner is probably the closest grain - and it doesn't need to be anything fancy.

 

[klangers]

It more comes down to how it is germinated and kilned, rather than the variety. The same barley can make Pilsner, Ale, Pale, Vienna, Munich etc.

There are very subtle differences but you wont notice them generally. Note that the darker the base malt the less diastatic power it will have. Munich is right on the edge of just having enough diastatic power to convert.

Quite right, but you'd be surprised as to how much the raw barley affects the outcome of malting.

Only certain parameters can be altered with temperature/time/CO2/moisture process variables in germination and kilning. Several important parameters, including protein levels and kernel size (an often underlooked aspect, esp when comparing 6 row to 2 row) have no opportunity to be altered during malting. Various minerals and flavour compounds can carry through too. Friability is closely related to the structure and strength of the raw barley as well as the degree of modification. Modification in turn is related to the original enzyme and protein content as well as the mlating regime.

But yeah, to extend your example, Munich malt is germinated under a rather warm, wet and oxygen-depleted regime to foster the growth of melanoidins which gives munich malt its classic colour and malty flavours. Vienna is a similar example.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

The quality of the raw barley is indeed critical. Has to have the right amount of protein, nitrogen etc.

Most barley goes to feed stock, and the really good stuff goes to malting

When you hear a farmer tell you his barley crop is malt grade you know he will make a lot more money

You can malt feed barley, but its not as good as malting barly

 

[Reman]

Whilst it is right than pretty much all the grain we have in Australia is 2-row, when an American recipe calls for "2-row" it is generally for a specific type of 2-row malt. Case in point; Briess, one of the biggest American malsters, offers both Pale Ale and 2-Row Malt. Both are technically "2-Row", but the grain they call 2-Row is very pale in colour, highly friable and has high diastatic powers and is more flavour neutral (less malt character).

If you don't have or can't get American 2-row, pilsner is probably the closest grain - and it doesn't need to be anything fancy.

See case-in-point Gladfield malts where they have both ale malt and American ale malt
http://www.gladfieldmalt.co.nz/the-malt/