Subbing 60min Challenger hops for Pacific Gem

[wbosher]

I've just finished off 20L of Dr Smurto's English IPA (with help from family/friends), it was lovely.I want to scale this up to 25L, it went too bloody quickly!

Beersmith now says I need about 55g of Challenger @60 mins for bittering. I have some high AA Pacific Gem laying around, would I be able to substitute at least some of the Challenger for the PG hops without altering the taste too much?

I remember a discussion where Manticle said that even bittering hops affect the flavour, I'm not sure how much though. I just don't like the idea of using so much Challenger hops for bittering, and have read that Pacific Gem can be very harsh.

I was thinking about a 50/50 split, 27g of each @60. Any thoughts?

EDIT: Added recipe


Recipe: DrSmurto's English IPA 25L
Brewer:
Asst Brewer:
Style: English IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 36.14 l
Post Boil Volume: 28.08 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 25.00 l
Bottling Volume: 23.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.062 SG
Estimated Color: 25.5 EBC
Estimated IBU: 57.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.6 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
6.88 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 1 98.3 %
0.12 kg Chocolate Malt (886.5 EBC) Grain 2 1.7 %
55.09 g Challenger [8.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 3 42.7 IBUs
17.53 g Challenger [8.00 %] - Boil 25.0 min Hop 4 9.4 IBUs
1.25 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 5 -
17.53 g Challenger [8.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 6 4.9 IBUs
35.00 g Challenger [8.00 %] - Aroma Steep 0.0 mi Hop 7 0.0 IBUs
1.3 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast 8 -
1.25 Items 60 Carb Drops (Bottling 0.0 mins) Other 9 -


Mash Schedule: BIAB, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 7.00 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Saccharification Add 40.42 l of water at 70.9 C 67.0 C 90 min
Mash Out Add -0.00 l of water and heat to 78.0 C 78.0 C 10 min

Sparge: Remove grains, and prepare to boil wort

 

[manticle]

Do you have access to something like Northern Brewer or Magnum?
Bittering hops do contribute to flavour - how much is somewhat dependent on the hop used and those two are known for their neutrality. Some of the flavour contribution may also be disguised by any late hopping you do.
55g of challenger isn't a lot for 25 L of a good beer though is it?

 

[wbosher]

No, I don't have any Northern Brewer or Magnum.

I certainly don't mind using the Challenger, I just wanted to avoid having to buy two packs for this - total 125g. I thought if I used some PG, which I already have, I could get away with only one 100g packet of Challenger.

There are about 70g of Challenger from the 25min mark until flame out, that should over ride any flavour put out by Pacific wouldn't it?

 

[Nick JD]

I find Pac Gem to be quite mellow - thoyugh I've never used it in huge quantities. Pac Jade is the crappy one IMO.

 

[simplefisherman]

I'll second the pacific gem not being overly harsh, you definitely know its there ( the stuff I've got is 17.4% aa so no big surprise that!), but having made a pils at c. 37ibu and a hefe-weizen (gasp!?) at c. 20+ibu with all Pac gem, neither was unpleasant. The hefe came out higher than planned as it was a guesstimate of late hopping and kettle chill but it still didn't overpower the yummy yeasty yesters...
Cant comment on its suitability as a substitute for challenger as I've never used that one but it did allow NZ hallertau to shine through in another Pils using Pac gem for bittering c. 28ibu and the hallertau for flavour & aroma of c. 8-9ibu late.
In short, (I am prone to ramble) if you want to reproduce what you've already made, spring for the extra bag of challenger, if you want to make a beer which should be quite similar, and certainly not unpleasant, use the Pac gem and let us know how it comes out.
Disclaimer; my homesickness may or may not be influencing my enjoyment of the kiwi hops...
Cheers

 

[wbosher]

I think I've been swayed towards keeping to the original recipe (except scaled up to 25L), and getting two packs of Challenger hops. I'll probably be doing this again in the future so will be good to have some on hand anyway.

I'll just need to find another user for the PGs at some stage.

 

[Pennywise]

Imo the amount of PG you'd be using you wouldn't even notice it, well, I wouldn't anyway. I (most of the time) sub 60 min additions for higher alhp hops. Works a treat

 

[drsmurto]

I'd stick with all challenger. It's a very nice hop for bittering, flavour and aroma.

 

[Pennywise]

What amounts do you usually use for late additions DrS? I've been using 1g/L at flameout and finding it a little much for me, maybe I'm over doing it....

Edit: sorry for slight OT