Style Of The Week 22/11/06 - Witbier

[Stuster]

Well, a little digging has resulted in a quote from Wes Smith, here, to the effect that the sourness from acidulated malt definitely will not carry over into the finished beer. However, weyermann themselves say that this malt is perfect for achieving the sour character of beers like Berliner Weisse, here. Anybody care to comment on that? Wes? Seth? Anybody?

Have fun with irrigating your Kolonic, Sethster.

 

[redbeard]

My last wit had some sour mash added to it. Ill bring a bottle to the ISB croz brewday its also my small xmas swap contribution.

i just followed a recipe from seth (thanks again). with about 50% pils, 35% raw wheat, 15% malted wheat & some rolled oats. the malted wheat made it up to a 50/50 combo.

i just scooped out about 200gms once cracked & put it into a 6pack esky & added some mash water & let it sit for a day or 2 with the lid on to get the natural souring

then used hallertou & saaz, corriander & orange peel for the boil. and of course a re-cultured hoe yeast fermented at about 15' for a week or 2.

while not really sour, it did have a nice edge / sharpness. hope its still there in 3 or 4 weeks !

 

[AndrewQLD]

If you use the proper yeast strain, ie White Labs belgian Wit or belgian Wit II or the Wyeast equivalent and a grist of at least 40% raw wheat you will get a very nice tart beer. The yeast gives a mild tartness to the brew but the raw wheat seems to make the sourness stand out. In the past I made my Wits with wheat malt for simplicity and was happy with the results but my last one was with 45% raw malt and it was a beauty.

Cheers
Andrew
Brewer: Andrew Clark
Asst Brewer:
Style: Witbier
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (47.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Size: 29.95 L
Estimated OG: 1.047 SG
Estimated Color: 3.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 20.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 63.3%
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
3.00 kg Pilsner, Malt Craft Export (Joe White) (1.6Grain 54.5 %
2.50 kg Wheat - Red Malt (Briess) (2.3 SRM) Grain 45.5 %
40.00 gm Goldings, U.K [5.00%] (60 min) Hops 20.1 IBU
25.00 gm Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
35.00 gm Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Belgian Wit Ale (White Labs #WLP400) Yeast-Wheat

 

[tangent]

are you talking briess malted wheat, or plain wheat (from a farmer stage) Andrew?

i'm just looking through some of my sketchy records and i've been averaging 45% malted wheat and then adding ~2-6% raw wheat, the rest of the grist generally being galaxy to help convert everything quickly and easily. Still keep a light colour as well.

 

[AndrewQLD]

are you talking briess malted wheat, or plain wheat (from a farmer stage) Andrew?

i'm just looking through some of my sketchy records and i've been averaging 45% malted wheat and then adding ~2-6% raw wheat, the rest of the grist generally being galaxy to help convert everything quickly and easily. Still keep a light colour as well.

Tangent, I used organic raw (whole) wheat from the health food store mixed and crushed with the pilsner malt. It converted pretty well with the pilsner malt and my last efficiency was around 68%. It was a very pale beer as well.
Don't get me wrong, wheat malt makes a very nice Wit, but the whole wheat gives it a tarter finish.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[tangent]

couldn't agree more Andrew!

do you use a step mash or pre-gelatinise, or single infuse, or what?
my efficiency craps out a bit when i do wheat beers because i mill a bit coarser.

 

[AndrewQLD]

I milled mine 3 times and there was a lot of flour I did a single infusion at 67c but mashed for 90 minutes. After the sparge I tipped the grains out and there was a small amout of gelatinised wheat flour stuck to the bottom of the tun, I now give the mash a good stir two or three times during the rest. I also nowsubstitute 1 kilo of galaxy malt in place of the Pilsner malt to help with the conversion, gives me a 5 point increase in eff.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Stuster]

Andrew, how much lower is that efficiency than your normal? What length mash was that?

 

[AndrewQLD]

Andrew, how much lower is that efficiency than your normal? What length mash was that?

90 minute mash and using the galaxy malt the eff was 68%. What I usually get for my wit using wheat malt and joe white pilsner is 70% .

Cheers
Andrew

 

[KoNG]

I milled mine 3 times and there was a lot of flour I did a single infusion at 67c but mashed for 90 minutes.
Cheers
Andrew

all good info Andrew.. thanx
so you didnt give the raw wheat a pre boil of any sorts...?
i thought the norm was to pre heat it for an hour or so at 80*C..!?!?
but if its not needed. all the better.

have you tried flaked wheat..?
i found some at the local co-op, it is quite dark (brown) in colour.. so i was wondering what king of EBC this would contribute.?

 

[Thommo]

This may be a stupid question so I'll apologise in advance.

Does Raw wheat, torrified wheat, flaked wheat, etc add any "fermentables" to the wort?

Cheers,
Thommo.

 

[KoNG]

haha.. one rover to another... YES.
the thing being its a little variable..
beersmith has each of them at around 1.035 - 1.036 extract potential.

 

[AndrewQLD]

I milled mine 3 times and there was a lot of flour I did a single infusion at 67c but mashed for 90 minutes.
Cheers
Andrew

all good info Andrew.. thanx
so you didnt give the raw wheat a pre boil of any sorts...?
i thought the norm was to pre heat it for an hour or so at 80*C..!?!?
but if its not needed. all the better.

have you tried flaked wheat..?
i found some at the local co-op, it is quite dark (brown) in colour.. so i was wondering what king of EBC this would contribute.?

Wheat will gelatinize between 52 and 64C, so I believe it will convert in the mash without any problems.
Gelatinization temps
Flaked wheat is 1.6 srm or 3.2 EBC .

Cheers
Andrew

 

[neonmeate]

Well, a little digging has resulted in a quote from Wes Smith, here, to the effect that the sourness from acidulated malt definitely will not carry over into the finished beer. However, weyermann themselves say that this malt is perfect for achieving the sour character of beers like Berliner Weisse, here. Anybody care to comment on that? Wes? Seth? Anybody?

this should probably be hashed out in its own thread as it is an interesting one that i've pondered as well. wes seems to be saying that it is purely designed for using in small quantities for buffering high-pH mashes, whereas weyermann say that in excess it will lower the wort pH as well. the question is how much you need to add to get past the buffering effect and leave actual sourness in the beer.

my personal experience with it - i did try using about 9-10% acid malt in a beer i made once that i intended to be kind of a sourmash tripel. it didn't make it sour but it left a weird rotten sort of flavour that was quite overpowering. i have also used too much when pH adjusting in pilseners and it left the same yukky flavour. maybe a better way to add sourness might be to sour the beer itself by throwing in a few grains of acid malt and keeping it warm for a week or two? (you could control it by souring only a couple of litres then pasteurising and adding back in)?

 

[tangent]

great work, thanks fellas. I've had a lot of little questions answered on a style i love.
To me it's all in the right liquid yeast and the raw wheat, but I'm keen to try the flour again, and won't bother with the acidulated malt.

cheers

 

[warrenlw63]

Not sure if it was pure coincidence but my best Witbier was made with Galaxy malt, certainly gave the palest finish I've ever seen. Oh, yeast was Wyeast 3522 Belg. Ardennes too. :beerbang:

Warren -

 

[KoNG]

ok... after making a second trip to the local Co-Op, i have decided to brew another wit, back to back and dump on the yeast cake.
I've made a few changes to the grist, so it will be good to tatse the differences.

A - Wit: 35% pils, 35% wheat malt, 18% Bourghul, 10% flour, 2% oats

B - Wit: 39% pils, 39% flaked wheat, 20% wheat malt, 2% oats


bit of a gripe regarding the wheat flakes.. the price..!
last brew i could only find bourghul which was expensive... i've now find cheaper bourghul at the co-op (less than half the price), but the bloody flaked wheat was $7/kg . the steaming/flaking must be an expensive process (smells and looks like a kellogs product.!), i noted they had organic raw wheat there which was very cheap.. will give that a go next time
is that the normal price people are paying for their wheat flakes.?

cant wait to pour the first one into my 500ml Hoegaarden vessel...

 

[berapnopod]

My experience with making sour wits is that the sourness comes from a secondary fermentation (probably lactobacillus). Because theres a significant portion of starches left in the beer - ie. flour - these are available for bugs to much on.

Of course, it was unintentional.

I found that this way the beer would improve up to about 3 months, as the sourness developed. After that the sourness got too overpowering. Anyone have an idea of how sour a wit should be? My hazy (no pun intended) recollection is that it is a very light sourness, nowhere near what you would have for a lambic or Berliner weisse.

Berp.

 

[KoNG]

what a disaster.
i had my first ever aborted mission on saturday after some 30 AG's... my first ever dumped mash <_<

WARNING.... when at your local hippy co-op: wheat "flakes" are not the same "flaked" wheat.

i didnt just have a slow sparge or an annoying sparge, i had a complete stuck from the get go. I did not lauter ONE drop, even if i stirred with the ball valve wide open, the braid would not let anything through, huge amounts of rice hulls didnt help.... So i ran up the road and grabbed T.D's MLT which uses a false bottom, thinking that would help or atleast make a difference. Nothing! not a drop.
Now i'm getting annoyed.
so i decide to let the mash settle for 30 minutes and then gently scoop everything off the top (leaving the mess in the bottom??) and back into my MLT, this took quite some time. NOTHING.

So i dumped it. with the knowledge that "wheat flakes" create concrete in 65*C water :excl:

yesterday, i brewed it again... but with some raw wheat grain i had found.
all went well, looked and smelt great.. although i missed my OG by 5 points (to be expected i guess).

happy again.

 

[tangent]

i know how you feel Kong.
2 brews ago, nothing would come out of the mash tun, so i had to pour the whole lot through a hop sock (now i know why i've got the jumbo). That was using rice hulls and a coarser grind.

I'm thinking of using about 13% raw and 39% malted wheat in my next Wit. The rest pilsner and a little vienna.