Strange Taste In Every Brew

[Inge]

Every single one of the last 3 AG brews I put down has developed a strange taste. I can only describe it as a semi-sweet synthetic, plastic or chemical kind of taste. It masks most hop flavour, all malt flavour, and increases the perception of bitterness. Makes the beer utterly undrinkable.

I am sure it's not an infection, as I'm scrupulous with hygeine, and there is no visible cultures on or in the wort even after 4 weeks at 22 (a little experiment of my own). It's not a phenolic taste, or like any of the other flavours you would associate with an infection.

I initially thought it may have been plasticisers leaching out of my racking hose, as the problems generally appeared after immediately after racking, however my current brew has developed the taste in primary, becoming really apparent right after cold conditioning.

It's not the no-chill cube, as full boil partials tasted fine coming out of it. I used a different mash tun for the partials.

So I'm thinking of some possible scenarios.

1) The flavour is coming from the fermenter - I used the same fermenter for primary for this brew as I did for secondary last brew. So either the flavour originates from the fermenter itself, or plasticisers from the racking hose don't wash out.

2) Residual cleaning chemicals - I'm using percarbonate to clean, Iodophor to sanitise.

3) Remnant of rubber tubing from inside of the SS braid - I used the blowtorch method to get it out. Thinking this could be a likely cause of the problem.

Does anyone have any thoughts or comments? I don't want to pour another cent into this until the problem is rectified.

My rig

 

[Inge]

Come to think if it, 4 brews ago I did a K + K muntons IPA. Same taste, so rule out the mash tun.

 

[pint of lager]

If you think it comes from your braid, grab the braid, soak it in clean very hot water for 30 minutes, let the water cool and taste the water.

Sodium percarbonate lingers. You need to rinse well, then follow with a kettle of boiling water.

Iodine, if used at super strength can leave a nasty twang. Taste (no need to swallow) some of your made up sanitiser and see if that is the same flavour.

To rule out your fermenter adding flavour, you can fill it with water, leave for a week and taste the water.

It does sound like an infection. Are you using fresh yeast from a known source or making up starters from possibly dodgy source? An infection does not necessarily leave a film on the surface.

 

[matti]

what type of beer are you brewing.
diacetyl taste filmy in excess. In lager it come out as butter scotch.

Oxidisation taste a bit like carboard and will flaw even the hoppiest brew. it may taste a bit like chemicals.

Lactic acid is sour and silky and even the smallest amount can be detected in any brew.
It destroys the fullness.

Tannins are in excess the most likely culprit.
It accentuates bitterness and shortens the longevity of storing the beer.
It taste very strong and the flavour of the beer can taste slighty burned at times and to me a bit phosphoric.

Sulphur (matchbox) flavour will dissipate with proper lagering.

Does the beer poor a god head or are the flat?

Good luck

 

[Stuster]

Are you sure it's not an infection? Could it be described as a band aid taste? Just sounds like it to me. It won't necessarily make the beer look any different to any other beer and being scrupulous about hygiene won't necessarily protect you from it (though it'll help). What yeasts have you used? It shouldn't be the cleaning/sterilising products you use (as long as you rinse out the percarbonate thoroughly). Although, is it pure percarbonate? Could it have perfume added?

 

[reVoxAHB]

1) The flavour is coming from the fermenter - I used the same fermenter for primary for this brew as I did for secondary last brew. So either the flavour originates from the fermenter itself

To me, it sounds like an infection potentially coming from any one of the bits of gear you mentioned, so you may need to keep swapping bits until you nail it.

Are you fermenting in plastic?

Grab a 23L glass carboy with fresh bung and ferm your next batch in it. If the batch comes clean, you can put it down to the ferm vessel.

Are you using the SS Braid in the bottom of your tun? Why not replace it, or borrow a false bottom (etc) from a mate (for a trial batch). Doesn't sound like the no-chill cube is the culprit, but if you've got another freely available, give it the swap too or chill your next batch and skip the cube altogether.

Point is, if you think it's gear related, swap bits (as is possible) until you locate the source of your woes.

reVox

 

[Inge]

If you think it comes from your braid, grab the braid, soak it in clean very hot water for 30 minutes, let the water cool and taste the water.

Sodium percarbonate lingers. You need to rinse well, then follow with a kettle of boiling water.

Iodine, if used at super strength can leave a nasty twang. Taste (no need to swallow) some of your made up sanitiser and see if that is the same flavour.

To rule out your fermenter adding flavour, you can fill it with water, leave for a week and taste the water.

It does sound like an infection. Are you using fresh yeast from a known source or making up starters from possibly dodgy source? An infection does not necessarily leave a film on the surface.

Yeast was dry... I made up the Iodophor as per directions (1:1000). Didn't rinse, of course. Thanks for the advice re: the braid, I'm going to try that right now.

Are you sure it's not an infection? Could it be described as a band aid taste? Just sounds like it to me. It won't necessarily make the beer look any different to any other beer and being scrupulous about hygiene won't necessarily protect you from it (though it'll help). What yeasts have you used? It shouldn't be the cleaning/sterilising products you use (as long as you rinse out the percarbonate thoroughly). Although, is it pure percarbonate? Could it have perfume added?

It's the Cooper's percarbonate, so it's unperfumed. I used US-05 for the yeast, rehydrated and pitched at 20 degrees. It's not a bandaid taste - I wish it were, that way I'd know what to do about it! :lol:

what type of beer are you brewing.
diacetyl taste filmy in excess. In lager it come out as butter scotch.

Oxidisation taste a bit like carboard and will flaw even the hoppiest brew. it may taste a bit like chemicals.

Lactic acid is sour and silky and even the smallest amount can be detected in any brew.
It destroys the fullness.

Tannins are in excess the most likely culprit.
It accentuates bitterness and shortens the longevity of storing the beer.
It taste very strong and the flavour of the beer can taste slighty burned at times and to me a bit phosphoric.

Sulphur (matchbox) flavour will dissipate with proper lagering.

Does the beer poor a god head or are the flat?

It's an APA using cascade, chinook and northern brewer for bittering. There's no carbonation, so no head to speak of. It's definitely not diacetyl, or a lactic infection or sulphur. Possibly oxidation or tannins.

Ok - that's narrowed it down to a handful:

Tannins - my sparge water is kept at about 80 degrees - I did get a bit of flour into the kettle, but I thought the tannins came from the husks?

Oxidation - Maybe. I haven't splashed it about at all (except on the hot side, but that was minimal)...

Residual Percarbonate - How would you describe the taste of percarbonate? I'm thinking this might be the culprit, as I haven't rinsed with boiling water ever, only cold water. Breaks down into H₂O₂, no? Would explain why it happened in my kit and kilo also... Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure it only started when I switched from neo pink to percarbonate.

I'm inclined to think the horrible flavour could be a combination of lingering percabonate and oxidation from the H₂O₂.

What do you reckon?

 

[Inge]

Just tasted the soak water from the braid.

Tasted like water to me... Can rule that one out.

 

[Julez]

Just out of interest, does this taste change over time? I have had a similar experience, have noticed a cardboardy taste and accentuated bitterness around week 3 then by week 4 it has dissipated quite a bit. In my case I am looking at the possibility of oxidation. Apparently one of the highest risk-times for oxidation to occur is at dough-in temps, so you even need to be quite careful adding your strike water to the mash tun. I also no-chill, which I am wondering about as well...

What is your process for transfering water or wort from vessel to vessel?

Found this "Basic Brewing Radio" story recently, where a few guys do an experiment to test the results of hot-side aeration/oxidation. Worth a listen, at least to the last one in the series... http://hunahpu.blogspot.com/2006/11/basic-...e-aeration.html

 

[Inge]

Just out of interest, does this taste change over time? I have had a similar experience, have noticed a cardboardy taste and accentuated bitterness around week 3 then by week 4 it has dissipated quite a bit. In my case I am looking at the possibility of oxidation. Apparently one of the highest risk-times for oxidation to occur is at dough-in temps, so you even need to be quite careful adding your strike water to the mash tun. I also no-chill, which I am wondering about as well...

What is your process for transfering water or wort from vessel to vessel?

Found this "Basic Brewing Radio" story recently, where a few guys do an experiment to test the results of hot-side aeration/oxidation. Worth a listen, at least to the last one in the series... http://hunahpu.blogspot.com/2006/11/basic-...e-aeration.html

I try to minimise HSA by adding my grain to the strike water and stirring slowly. Will give it a listen :lol:

 

[Darren]

Could simply be a nasty dose of Chinook. What the the IBU??

cheers

Darren

 

[Julez]

I try to minimise HSA by adding my grain to the strike water and stirring slowly. Will give it a listen :lol:

Cool - just listen to the last episode, as John Palmer comes in and points out a serious error in their experimentation process (this is the interesting bit, about lipoxegenase). From about 8 minutes onwards in the podcast.

 

[Inge]

Could simply be a nasty dose of Chinook. What the the IBU??

cheers

Darren

Here's the recipe. Only a little bit of chinook...

Brew Type: All Grain Date: 15/04/2008
Style: American Pale Ale Brewer: Teaganbrau
Batch Size: 21.00 L Assistant Brewer:
Boil Volume: 25.08 L Boil Time: 60 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 % Equipment: Brew Pot (6+gal) and Igloo/Gott Cooler (5 Gal)
Actual Efficiency: 64.1 %
Taste Rating (50 possible points): 35.0

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
3.50 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.9 EBC) Grain 62.5 %
2.00 kg Munich, Light (Joe White) (17.7 EBC) Grain 35.7 %
0.10 kg Crystal Malt - Australian Grain (108.2 EBC) Grain 1.8 %
10.00 gm Chinook [13.00%] (30 min) Hops 11.0 IBU
10.00 gm Northern Brewer [8.50%] (60 min) Hops 9.4 IBU
15.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (30 min) Hops 7.0 IBU
15.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (10 min) Hops 3.3 IBU
5.00 gm Chinook [13.00%] (10 min) Hops 2.6 IBU
15.00 gm Cascade [5.50%] (2 min) Hops 0.8 IBU

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.059 SG (1.045-1.060 SG) Measured Original Gravity: 1.054 SG
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.015 SG (1.010-1.015 SG) Measured Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Color: 17.5 EBC (9.9-27.6 EBC) Color [Color]
Bitterness: 34.0 IBU (30.0-50.0 IBU) Alpha Acid Units: 1.9 AAU
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 5.7 % (4.5-6.0 %) Actual Alcohol by Volume: 5.3 %
Actual Calories: 508 cal/l

 

[Inge]

Cool - just listen to the last episode, as John Palmer comes in and points out a serious error in their experimentation process (this is the interesting bit, about lipoxegenase). From about 8 minutes onwards in the podcast.

Interesting stuff. Might have to try a pinch of metabisulfate in the next mash.

Sorry, to answer your questions before, hot wort transfer is done with silicon tubing + gravity, into nochill, and then just poured straight into the fermenter to oxygenate. The taste does change over time, but I put that down to the actual taste of the beer changing with time - a perceived change in the bad flavours.

 

[mfdes]

Just to clear it out: It is clear you do full-volume boils. Do you top up with water and if so do you use exclusively boiled water?
I tend to avoid plastic if I can. The only plastic that comes in contact with my brews is the racking vynil. I'm in the process of switching to silicone that I can boil to thoroughly sanitise.

MFS.

 

[Inge]

Just to clear it out: It is clear you do full-volume boils. Do you top up with water and if so do you use exclusively boiled water?
I tend to avoid plastic if I can. The only plastic that comes in contact with my brews is the racking vynil. I'm in the process of switching to silicone that I can boil to thoroughly sanitise.

MFS.

Nope, never top up. Wouldn't dare either, seeing as though we are on tank water

 

[devo]

Nope, never top up. Wouldn't dare either, seeing as though we are on tank water

Tank water aye! Tried checking that out as the possible culprit? Tanks have recently been found to be leaking plenty of metals etc into the water that the manufactures originally claimed they didn't!!!

 

[Inge]

Tank water aye! Tried checking that out as the possible culprit? Tanks have recently been found to be leaking plenty of metals etc into the water that the manufactures originally claimed they didn't!!!

Ooh. Hello. Another thing to cross off the list.

Going to put a brew on this Saturday. Single malt, single hop EKG ESB.

Changes to make:

1) Fermenter is going to be cleaned with pink neo, rinsed with a few litres of boiling water, rinsed with lots of cold water and finally sanitised with iodophor
2) All water going into the kettle will be scheme water from the service station down the road
3) Absolute minimal aeration on the hot side, might add a pinch metabisulfate to the strike water
4) Fermented with clean starter
5) Racking hose replaced

Eliminate all potential causes, if this doesn't work, I'm giving up

 

[amita]

Ooh. Hello. Another thing to cross off the list.

Going to put a brew on this Saturday. Single malt, single hop EKG ESB.

Changes to make:

1) Fermenter is going to be cleaned with pink neo, rinsed with a few litres of boiling water, rinsed with lots of cold water and finally sanitised with iodophor



sorry if I say something what has already been mentioned( havent read the whole thingy)

I went on holiday and let somebody else brew in my shed( BIG mistake..he was a very good cleaner )) and ended up with a bad infection that I couldnt get rid of till I thoroughly clean everthing with a product called PROCESS and nutralized it with citric acid,
it fixed the problem and I cleaned EVERYTHING hoses included, taps pulled apart , you name it THE LOT,
and now I am happy,

the product I bought here in Margaret River in a shop that supplies wineries,

good luck with it,
cheers amita

 

[Inge]

Roger that mate, I'll caustic the shit out everything too, in case it is an infection.