Sterilising Your Fermentables?

[rday]

I've seen some mention of people boiling water, adding whatever sugary fermentables (i.e. dex or malt) they plan to use, and then boiling the sugar water before adding it to the fermenter.

I'm thinking this is unnecessary... Sugar is hygroscopic, so it should be impossible for much of anything to survive in it, as any living cell would be sucked dry by the surrounding sugars. Spores could potentially withstand this, but some can just as easily withstand boiling. Furthermore, if you've got spores in your sugars, you (or someone at the dextrose factory) is probably doing something seriously wrong.

Any opinions?

 

[marksfish]

i boil all additions on the better to be safe policy, boiling also allows for hops to be added for flavor etc. :icon_cheers:

 

[jonocarroll]

Easy answer: Brew a batch without boiling and see how it tastes.

The purpose of the boil isn't just for killing nasties - there are several advantages to boiling, but I really can't be bothered typing them all up in detail right now. Some include hop additions, hot break/protein coagulation, hop oil extraction and melanoidin creation. Have a look at how-to-brew, or do a search for boiling in the title on AHB (good luck).

I'm sure someone else will be able to inform you more.

 

[Fourstar]

I used to boil kits to drive out chlorine from the water. Then realised i was making beer beer by adding hops!

 

[manticle]

I've seen some mention of people boiling water, adding whatever sugary fermentables (i.e. dex or malt) they plan to use, and then boiling the sugar water before adding it to the fermenter.

I'm thinking this is unnecessary... Sugar is hygroscopic, so it should be impossible for much of anything to survive in it, as any living cell would be sucked dry by the surrounding sugars. Spores could potentially withstand this, but some can just as easily withstand boiling. Furthermore, if you've got spores in your sugars, you (or someone at the dextrose factory) is probably doing something seriously wrong.

Any opinions?

I'm not going to stand up and say for sure it is necessary but how does being hygroscopic (moisture loving) make anything resistant to biological attack? It doesn't suck the life out of surrounding microorganisms, it attracts moisture. Moisture + sugar = food for micro-organisms which can multiply. Ever cultured mould on a plate of Agar?

 

[Bribie G]

In my kits n bits days I made many a brew just tipping in the softened goop from the tin and pouring the dex straight into the fermenter and never had any problems. You have to be lucky. However I always made sure the fermenter, spoons etc were well sanitised to start off with.

Nowadays as a grain brewer, when I have a recipe such as an Australian lager or some of the UK Bitters that call for some white sugar I give it a boil, but just as an insurance policy so I don't waste four or five hours of dedicated work B)

 

[manticle]

Sorry to post twice but my mind has boggled. Are you seriously suggesting micro-organisms are killed by sugars?

If that were the case we wouldn't need penicillin. We'd just take a big dose of CSR with everyhting.

Sorry if I've misunderstood.

 

[jonocarroll]

Sorry to post twice but my mind has boggled. Are you seriously suggesting micro-organisms are killed by sugars?

If that were the case we wouldn't need penicillin. We'd just take a big dose of CSR with everyhting.

Sorry if I've misunderstood.

I think you may have. The mechanism for killing bugs is sound, I believe. It at least works with salt for curing meats. A tablespoon of salt doesn't exactly clear up an illness. That link has an explanation for curing with sugar, but that may be different.

And FWIW, your understanding of the human body is pretty poor if you think that all micro-organisms are in direct contact with the gastro-intestinal tract :blink:

 

[manticle]

No, I was taking the piss with the penicillin comment. Salt draws moisture out of things sure and so does sugar if sprinkled in high enough concentration. It's not an automatic sanitation product though. Maybe you could make sugarred proscuitto or Gravalax but you sure as hell can't rely on it to act as a microbe killer (suggested in the first post)

You can't seriously be trying to tell me that sugar kills anything that tries to live in it because it doesn't. I'm not a microbiologist but I do work in a lab that uses starch paste which is made fresh every week and kept in the fridge due to being prone to microbiological attack. The same lab uses methyl cellulose (starch based product from cellulose) which has a much longer shelf life but still needs refrigeration and can be subject to mould infestation (as can any sugar or starch solution).

If the original OP was simply talking about dried sugar then fine - without moisture it's pretty stable .

However malt was mentioned. Despite being in kits and extracts that could still mean malt extracted from grains by steeping or minimashing. If anyone wants to tell me that stuff is bacteria resistant I'll laugh loudly.

If I'm wrong I'll eat my hat.

PS If I could qualify for a moment - sprinkling either salt or sugar in large amounts over foodstuffs or cooking with high concentrations can preserve food by killing bacteria or preventing its growth. That does not mean that sugar (in all its wonderful forms) is resistant to bacteria which is what I was trying to get at and is what was suggested in the original post.

 

[jonocarroll]

If I'm wrong I'll eat my hat.

Perhaps with a dash of honey which prohibits bacterial growth via osmotic effects? Just sayin is all.

Edit: Bees add the glucose oxidase enzyme to honey which on contact with human tissue slowly releases antiseptic hydrogen peroxide. I just wanted to mention honey.

 

[manticle]

I'll save you a slice.

I know about the osmotic effects of salts and sugars. I also know that sugar plus water = bacteria heaven. I'm not explaining myself very well perhaps but the idea that ALL sugars in ALL forms are bacteria killers is what I inferred from the first post which is not true.

My inference may have been incorrect but in that case the first post was badly worded.

 

[jonocarroll]

It's somewhat moot anyway - as I said in my original response, killing bacteria isn't the only (or main) reason for boiling. Even if sugars could kill off everything, there's good enough reason to still boil the liquids.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

No, I was taking the piss with the penicillin comment. Salt draws moisture out of things sure and so does sugar if sprinkled in high enough concentration. It's not an automatic sanitation product though. Maybe you could make sugarred proscuitto or Gravalax but you sure as hell can't rely on it to act as a microbe killer (suggested in the first post)

You can't seriously be trying to tell me that sugar kills anything that tries to live in it because it doesn't. I'm not a microbiologist but I do work in a lab that uses starch paste which is made fresh every week and kept in the fridge due to being prone to microbiological attack. The same lab uses methyl cellulose (starch based product from cellulose) which has a much longer shelf life but still needs refrigeration and can be subject to mould infestation (as can any sugar or starch solution).

If the original OP was simply talking about dried sugar then fine - without moisture it's pretty stable .

However malt was mentioned. Despite being in kits and extracts that could still mean malt extracted from grains by steeping or minimashing. If anyone wants to tell me that stuff is bacteria resistant I'll laugh loudly.

If I'm wrong I'll eat my hat.

PS If I could qualify for a moment - sprinkling either salt or sugar in large amounts over foodstuffs or cooking with high concentrations can preserve food by killing bacteria or preventing its growth. That does not mean that sugar (in all its wonderful forms) is resistant to bacteria which is what I was trying to get at and is what was suggested in the original post.

Sugar in and of itself does not kill bacteria - but bacteria cant survive in a sugar solution that is high enough in concentration. Nasty osmosis. This is why your honey/golden syrup/molasses etc etc doesn't auto ferment into high powered hooch before you can spread it on your toast.

The OP is (in my opinion) confusing syrups with solids - there is no reason why a nice spoilage bacterium couldn't be sitting on top of a bit of dust, that happens to have fallen into your sugar bowl. Dilute your sugar down to wort strength and now your bacterium is floating in nutrient solution. This is a possible problem - boil that solution and it ceases to be a possible problem.

Thats why people boil their fermentables - they are being extra cautious and being extra cautious about sanitation, is part of being a good brewer.

 

[rclemmett]

I've seen some mention of people boiling water, adding whatever sugary fermentables (i.e. dex or malt) they plan to use, and then boiling the sugar water before adding it to the fermenter.

I'm thinking this is unnecessary... Sugar is hygroscopic, so it should be impossible for much of anything to survive in it, as any living cell would be sucked dry by the surrounding sugars. Spores could potentially withstand this, but some can just as easily withstand boiling. Furthermore, if you've got spores in your sugars, you (or someone at the dextrose factory) is probably doing something seriously wrong.

Any opinions?

Geez I never thought about this.... Maybe I should get an autoclave, or better yet an incinerator. Seriously though, last time I checked I have no control over the "dextrose factory", but I do have control over most bacteria through sterilisation via boiling.

On a side note. I was talking to someone, who shall remain unnamed, about servicing a heat shrinker used to seal quantities of dex, malt etc for homebrewing retail supplies. It needed repairs because it was so gunked up with sugars and mold.... I now boil all dex and malt I buy.

 

[Nick JD]

Healthy yeast is pretty good at murdering bacteria.

 

[iScarlet]

Healthy yeast is pretty good at murdering bacteria.

Aye, but do you want bacteria corpses rotting in your brew, eh?