Starter Size

[Major Arcana]

G'day Fellas

I will be making a RIS on Monday and the recipe calls for a 3 litre starter I have an OG of 1091 and a FG of 1022 this will be a 19L batch. What I am not to sure on is that when it comes to pitching this starter am I adding this 3 litres on top of the 19Litres which will obviously be 22 litres in the end, or do I add the starter at the 16Litre mark? I am assuming that adding this on top of the 19L will dilute the batch down a fair bit. What are your thoughts?

cheers,

Dan

 

[mofox1]

I chill and decant the top liquid. I'll either leave a little in to swirl around so I can mix it up and tip out, or add some cooled boiled water.

I've just bottled a 16L RIS that started at 1.095(ish). I made a 1L starter from WLP023 (Burton Ale), chilled, decanted, stepped up to something ~3L, chilled, decanted and pitched.

There was plenty enough yeast to tuck some away in a couple of vials for next time.

Edit: Directly answering the question - Make recipe to 19L, decanted starter volume will be ~300ml or so (not sure - never measured) so I consider that negligible to the size of the batch and my ability to measure volumes.

 

[TheWiggman]

As per what mofox said if you're going for a 19l batch. Adding the entire starter will dilute down your wort.

For smaller beers you can use the wort as the starter (1.040 is typically recommended for fresh yeast). Easy with a no-chill batch. Put 1l in an Erlennmeyer flask or 1.25l Fanta bottle - depending on your socioeconomic class - and add yeast. Once at/past high krausen, throw the lot into your fermenter.

I've put ~1.5l of starter using only DME into a lager and it was still a good beer. For best results, avoid this.

 

[Major Arcana]

Thanks mofox1, This will be my first starter and am trying to make it as simple for me as possible haha, I definitely am keen to try decanter it, but for this batch I was planning on using the whole 3 litres. Do you recommend against doing this?

Cheers,

 

[Major Arcana]

Perhaps I should fill to 16 litres and pitch the 3 litre starter to make 19 litres. I am assuming the taste will be quite satisfactory from the 3 litres of yeast starter?

 

[Major Arcana]

Okay i have decided i am going to have to decant most of this as 3 litres into the batch just seems way to much, bit of a newby question but I am assuming I am only trying to pitch the slurry on the bottom of the starter and get rid of the liquid at the top. How do you guys go about this? Do you just carefully tip it out leaving a few hundred mill on top of the slurry then pitch? Any info would be great fellas.

cheers,

Dan

 

[mofox1]

Perhaps I should fill to 16 litres and pitch the 3 litre starter to make 19 litres. I am assuming the taste will be quite satisfactory from the 3 litres of yeast starter?

Tip a bit of the starter out and taste it - I usually find it unpleasant, like a slightly sour, bitey/zingy taste with a bit of funk and bready overtones. And that's an official review, okay

If you are going to tip the lot in, you will want to account for the volume in your recipe specs so that you end up with the correct OG in the fermenter. Also your hops utilisation will be a bit lower in a higher gravity boil.

If you go for the decant method, it's pretty damn easy. Just takes 3 days longer. Place your starter flask/bottle/etc at the back & bottom of the fridge (coldest place) after it has fermented out. This will help the yeast drop out of suspension and should occur within 3 days. Then tip the liquid out - the yeast should have formed a fairly compact sludge down the bottom, if it's still "loose" then just decant as much as you feel comfortable (stop when you see yeast pouring out!).

 

[mckenry]

Okay i have decided i am going to have to decant most of this as 3 litres into the batch just seems way to much, bit of a newby question but I am assuming I am only trying to pitch the slurry on the bottom of the starter and get rid of the liquid at the top. How do you guys go about this? Do you just carefully tip it out leaving a few hundred mill on top of the slurry then pitch? Any info would be great fellas.

cheers,

Dan

Do you just carefully tip it out leaving a few hundred mill on top of the slurry then pitch?

Thats it. Its quite easy to decant the liquid. Just stop when theres just enough to swirl the set yeast. Dont pitch 3L into 19. Its a big % of aerated wort that can impact the flavour.
All the yeast is in the sludge, so its only the sludge you want.

 

[mofox1]

Okay i have decided i am going to have to decant most of this as 3 litres into the batch just seems way to much, bit of a newby question but I am assuming I am only trying to pitch the slurry on the bottom of the starter and get rid of the liquid at the top. How do you guys go about this? Do you just carefully tip it out leaving a few hundred mill on top of the slurry then pitch? Any info would be great fellas.

cheers,

Dan

Lol... you got in just before I hit send. But yeah - as you said, carefully tip, leave a bit and pitch. I tend to use sterile water, but few hundred ml of starter liquid isn't going to make a difference.

You just need enough that the slurry will pour out easily.

 

[JaseH]

I generally just leave it overnight in the fridge, as long as most of the yeast has set in the bottom of the starter you'll be right. Gently pour off most of the liquid leaving just enough to swirl the yeast cake back into suspension and pour it in! Only time I like to pour the whole starter in is if I'm using the actual wort from the beer I'm brewing - then I'll stop the stir plate once its at high krausen. Don't toss your stir bar into the wort if your using a stir plate!

 

[Major Arcana]

Thanks fellas,

Does it need to be completely fermented out before putting in the fridge overnight? I am planning on smacking the pack tonight and making the wort for it tomorrow, add the yeast and let it do its thing before the AFL grand final so 12pm here in Perth, then I was hoping to have it decanted and able to pitch in my actual brew wort by Monday arvo. Would this be achievable do you think?

Going to make the RIS on Monday so hoping to pitch it then.

Cheers,

 

[mofox1]

Happy to be corrected, but from experience it needs to be completely fermented, otherwise it just doesn't seem to floc out. Can you no-chill (cube the wort) and pitch later in the week?

Otherwise your best bet is to pitch an active starter as there's not enough time for it to ferment out completely, let alone chilling it. (ie pretty much ignore everything I've said so far... should have read the Monday part. derp.)

 

[Major Arcana]

mofox1, All good buddy learning as much as I can, so its all been useful info mate, if I pitch an active starter that means I would have to pitch the whole 3 litres yeah? I was hoping I would be able to make the starter let it do its thing all Saturday and Sunday then on Monday I will make the RIS wort, then when it comes time to pitching I could hopefully decant at least 2.5 litres of the starter and pitch the rest straight in. Do you think this would work?

Thanks again for the info,

Cheers,

 

[mosto]

Depends how quickly your starter ferments out. It may be done in two days. What method are you using for your starter, stir plate, or shake as you walk past? This will affect the speed at which it ferments. If you no chill, all good, as you can cube the wort until the starter has fermented out.

Just a couple of points with starters and the debate of how and when to pitch. Technically, a 'starter' is just that, you are starting the yeast off and basically waking them up. As soon as you see signs of fermentation (bubbles forming, condensation on the inside of the vessel), you can tip the whole lot in and away you go. You would use this method if you're happy that you have a high enough cell count in the yeast you have, this is simply waking the yeast up to get a short lag time and, as Frothie says, it's best to use the same wort as you're pitching in to if possible. From my understanding, you pitch as soon as fermentation starts to avoid any off flavours from oxidation.

Letting the starter ferment out completely, then chilling and decanting so you're left with the slurry, is actually propagating the yeast to increase your cell count. You do this if you're have a small, or old yeast sample or, as in your case, you're pitching into a high gravity wort.

So basically, if you're using a stir plate, it may be finished in two days, but remember you also need to allow time to chill it down to compact the yeast and to let warm back up to pitching temp.

Hopefully this makes sense.

 

[Major Arcana]

G'day mosto

Im just shaking as I walk past at the moment mate, so it may take a bit longer then 2 days, if that is the case I might make the RIS wort on Tuesday or Wednesday, yep no chill, so I will wait till it has fermented then decant it and pitch. By this time im assuming the yeast count has risen quite a bit. Hopefully this is the right way to go.

cheers,,

 

[mosto]

Cell growth will depend on the age of your yeast pack. There's a couple of calculators out there that can help you estimate cell growth. I've been using http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/ and there's also one on yeastcalc.com, but it doesn't work on my iPhone for some reason.