Speidels Braumeister. Impressive Yes. Expensive Yes.

[~MikE]

You have to compare these things with something similar, it pointless comparing them to the system you whipped up out of old ice cream tubs and string... You have to assume that when you are thinking about one of these... You are playing in the realm of off the shelf turnkey breweries

So you can get a 50L braumeister from G&G for $4000 - how much to buy a different system that will do the same stuff??

G&G's 50L HERMS - $4500 and it's nowhere near as automated
More Beer 50L tippy sculpture HERMS - Upgraded to make it as automatic as the braumeister.. $3850 before shipping from the US
Sabco Brewmagic - $5600 before shipping from the US
Beer Belly - more than $5500 for the same level of functionality.

Now I am not saying for a secomd that these systems are better, worse or even directly comparable.. But I am saying that if you are talking about 50L or so, automated, recirculating brewhouses... The Braumeister unit is not only not "expensive" it's well and truly at the lower end of the price scale and seems to be at the upper end of the Functionality range as well.

So well worth considering if you are in the market for a turnkey system.

those HERMS systems have a lot more SS to show for the price which i think is why people mightn't consider the braumeister good value. having said that i think i could piece together something with the same features and functionality as the braumeister for half the price - not counting man-hours - plus it wouldn't look as nice...

 

[winkle]

OMG, that 200l thingy is sweet as.... :icon_drool2:

Oh well, back to the keg-like objects and esky. <_<

 

[Ross]

I probably am little defensive in some ways, because I've made comments such as "I can do this with BIAB" and been shot down by the purists who've said "BIAB isn't real AG brewing" or "you can't get a decent beer with BIAB like you can with [insert other method]".

Goomba

Hi Goomba - A little off topic, but would be interested in links to back up these comments. I'm not saying they weren't said, just interested to see who these purists (idiots) are you're accusing of saying BIAB isn't real AG brewing.

Cheers Ross

 

[MarkBastard]

No reason to be defensive/apologetic or for anyone to take this subject to heart. I like my Braumeister it suits me and the time I have available to devote to brewing.
BIAB, the stove top variation, three vessel, HERMS, RIMS or the biggest flashest gold plated bit of brew porn are all just ways to make beer, the one that works for you is the right one for you.

Some of us find the cost of a turnkey system a bit daunting (mine cost about $5K, the AUD sucked against the Euro and it was air freighted by Lufthansa) at the time that hurt, but I haven't regretted it for 1 second.
Everyone here knows I sell Braumeister over the years I have been a member of AHB I have tried very hard not to "Advertise" in threads, advertising isn't what I want from AHB. Happy to answer questions about Braumeister based on having done about 100 brews on one and on having supported half a dozen other Braumeister owners.

A couple of points raised above that I would like to address: -
The question of chilling, I have used an inline chiller an immersion chiller, now I just no-chill, it's too easy, my knockout exactly fills 2 X 20L cubes so almost exactly 45L, I can them brew them as single batches at my leisure in any order I like.
On standard beer (1.045-50) I get 80% brewhouse efficiency without trying too hard, the worst I have ever got was about 37% but that wort knocked out at 1.114 so to be expected, the best about 85% for a Mild.
The elements in the Braumeister are Stainless Steel and really long, in the 50L version (3.2kW) the total length is just under 7 Meters, in the 20 L Braumeister (2 kW) the element is 2.6 Metres long. Long low heat density elements are much better than shorter hotter elements they cost more but they last longer, cause less darkening and aren't as prone to causing burnt flavours.

MHB

Thanks for the feedback, I one for find it very interesting and would like to hear more and I don't think it's like you're selling so don't worry about that.

I definitely cant' get one any time soon but I reckon this is the avenue I'll end up going down in 5-10 years and hopefully by then they may be a bit cheaper and perhaps evolved to be a bit better (though they sound awesome already).

Even though I like brewing beer, I like the drinking and kegging side more than the brewing side. I like the recipe formulation etc but the actual act of brewing isn't 100% appealing to me. It's mainly a time thing though. If I could automate it more then I would brew a lot more.

 

[drtomc]

Ross, I have not read such comments here, but when I first came across a reference to BIAB on Oliver & Geoff's, I googled it and found a thread on [um, can't remember exactly - but some US forum] with TB and PP giving a spirited defence of BIAB, with a lot of "it can't possibly produce *good* beer" posts from the resident brewer crowd. Admittedly, at the time there were no competition results to give a reasonably objective comparison, but one did suspect at the time that the loudest nay-sayers had the most expensive trad rigs.

T.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Hi Goomba - A little off topic, but would be interested in links to back up these comments. I'm not saying they weren't said, just interested to see who these purists (idiots) are you're accusing of saying BIAB isn't real AG brewing.

Cheers Ross

G'day Ross,

Have tried. First port of call was to look for a particular individual who has done it, but of course the profile read only lists the last 5 or 6 posts, not all (from what I can figure). Next port of call was to try any topic started/significantly contributed to by Nick_JD or Pistol Patch, that didn't work - I know they're there, but it's a matter of massaging the search to get it for me.

Not trying to start a slagging match, but I did have to ingore a couple of people who started flame wars/trolling my posts.

I'll defend BIAB to the death, but I take on board your implied note - I should save all the posts of all the people who have bagged BIAB, and not shoot my mouth (typing fingers) off without having my proof readily accessible. :blink:

Goomba

edit:

Here's one that started. - well kinda and another one.. I'm finding a lot of references to these said posts, but as yet, haven't got the search function to find me the posts. I've given up - I have work to do.

 

[MarkBastard]

I am really happy with BIAB but I've never used 3V so I will not comment on BIAB vs 3V.

If you haven't done both, don't comment IMO.

That is unless you're talking about a specific claim, like say if a 3V person said BIAB can't make good beer. You can refute that. But if they said 3V is easier to make better beer, well you don't know really do you.

 

[earle]

but of course the profile read only lists the last 5 or 6 posts, not all (from what I can figure).

Don't go into the profile. While you viewing one of their messages, click on their name and select view member posts. You'll get a long list, pages and pages.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Don't go into the profile. While you viewing one of their messages, click on their name and select view member posts. You'll get a long list, pages and pages.

Thanks earle. I had another member also PM about how to do this. Still getting used to buttons other than "post".

Goomba

 

[Swinging Beef]

This thread is going somewhere new fast.

 

[haysie]

This thread is going somewhere new fast.

Back on track,
Do they require a 15amp plug for the 3600w element?
@MHB or other users, reliable/serviceable/warranty?. While we have the thread up lets get into em balls n all.

 

[MHB]

The 50 L version certainly needs a 15A plug, I had dedicated circuit installed with an earth leakage detector from memory it cost about $450, the 20 L version is fine in a standard socket. I would in any case make sure there was an earth leakage detector on any circuit where I brewed; playing in water and holding 240 volts will ruin your whole day.

I have sold 6 Braumeisters, so far we have had 1 computer play up, Braumeister sent a new one air mail it was here in a couple of days.
About 100 brews and 3 years in and I am thinking of replacing the fabric filters that sits on the perforated stainless supports and the silicone seal at the bottom of the malt tube is getting on. Not urgent but looking second hand - to date that's it.
So in my experience the reliability is high, the warranty is 12 months, if you go to http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/ on the left hand side is "Terms and Conditions" see section 8, you can read all the legal gobbledygook; remember Speidel (the parent company) is also a large manufacture of winemaking equipment, the same T&C are there for those products to.

I carry some parts, won't be getting rich selling them!

MHB

 

[Florian]

Have been looking at the braumeister again for parts of the day, I really start to like it a lot. Reading the complete manual answered most of my questions.
However, how do you circulate your wort before draining to the kettle like you would on a conventional mash tun? I guess you could drain through the tap and recirculate onto the grain bed before slowly raising the grain. But is it necessary? Do people actually do it? There is no reference to it in the manual so I assume it's not common?

Florian

 

[Weizguy]

Have been looking at the braumeister again for parts of the day, I really start to like it a lot. Reading the complete manual answered most of my questions.
However, how do you circulate your wort before draining to the kettle like you would on a conventional mash tun? I guess you could drain through the tap and recirculate onto the grain bed before slowly raising the grain. But is it necessary? Do people actually do it? There is no reference to it in the manual so I assume it's not common?

Florian

Well Florian, having seen the 'Meister in action and having brewed a few with MHB, I can answer that.

There is a circulation pump that cycles the wort through the enclosed grain constantly during the mash temp schedule/regime. By the end of the mash, the wort is quite clear and you just need to lift the grain colander out of the wort and drain it.

Hope this helps. MHB will correct me if I'm wrong, or too simplistic.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I'm having trouble building a good mental picture of the "purification" step.

I get that teh wort is fundamentally clear due to the recirculation during the mash - but doesn't the wort circulate through the grain bed from bottom to top? And given that, when you pull out the malt tube and it drains out, presumably through the bottom... Doesn't that sort of back flush the whole thing, wreck the established grain bed structure and make cloudy wort come out? And again if you happen to sparge... Going backwards against the grain bed structure established during the mash recirculation.

Or is it just a case that what seems like it "would" happen, just doesn't in reality actually happen?

Oh, and is it possible to do a 20l batch in the 50L unit?

TB

 

[Florian]

Les, that's what I first thought as well, and it does make sence, but same as TB I'm concerned about the grain bed structure that gets wrecked. But somehow I think that it is a case of, as TB put it nicely, that "what seems like it "would" happen, just doesn't in reality actually happen." So I'm hoping for users to chime in. The fact that Les has seen it underlines that theory.
I will also ask that question on the german forums and see what they have to say.

TB, you can do smaller batches on the 50L unit, there is a short malt pipe available for that purpose.

Somehow I still think I would stick to the 20L unit, guess you could easily do 25L or larger batches with post boil dilution in it?

Florian

 

[MHB]

I'm having trouble building a good mental picture of the "purification" step.

I get that teh wort is fundamentally clear due to the recirculation during the mash - but doesn't the wort circulate through the grain bed from bottom to top? And given that, when you pull out the malt tube and it drains out, presumably through the bottom... Doesn't that sort of back flush the whole thing, wreck the established grain bed structure and make cloudy wort come out? And again if you happen to sparge... Going backwards against the grain bed structure established during the mash recirculation.

Or is it just a case that what seems like it "would" happen, just doesn't in reality actually happen?

Oh, and is it possible to do a 20l batch in the 50L unit?

TB

You would think so wouldn't you it doesn't happen.

In part the term Purification could be an issue with translation think more Clarification

The malt pipe is quite full when you mash in, because of the constant recirculation the system spends an hour or more slowly migrating all the small partials up through the grain bed (remember there is a fabric filter at the top and bottom). When you lift the malt pipe it is removed as a unit with the filters in place. The 10-15 minutes you spend doing a flood sparge isn't enough to undo the process.

It's a very elegant balance,

I heat 10 L (1L/Kg Malt) of water to 80^oC in an urn, lift the malt pipe at the end of mashing, rest it on the support stirrup, then pour the hot water into the top of the malt pipe, Braumeister gives temperature rate of rise of very close to 1^oC/Minute so there is about 20 minutes between end of mashing and start of boil for the hot water to rinse through the grain. Just before it comes to the boil, lift the malt pipe off and put it in a basin to drain - and if you like toss any runnings in into the Braumeister before the end of the boil.

MHB

 

[randyrob]

Hey Guys,

A mate drew this up for me when i was trying to understand how the Braumeisters worked when i was playing around with an autoBIAB setup.



Cheers Rob.

 

[Eater]

If im understanding correctly after reading back through the thread again (great evolution in this one) im still struggling with where some of the clarification comes from

Ive edited the pic as supplied above with my concerns, which only come from the vids where i see a lot of material overflowing from the top of the malt pipe
!

Red is material from overflow of malt pipe.

 

[MHB]

The term Purification can be confusing; it comes from someone whose first language isn't English doing the translation. A better term might be Clarification.

After mash in, when recirculation starts the liquor is milky white with fine malt flour. As the mash and recirculation continues the liquor is filtered through the grain bed - after about 15-20 minutes it is crystal clear.
Remember that the recirculation is continuous throughout the entire mash time, generally 1-1 hours by this time the fines have migrated well up the grain bed so when you hoist the malt tube (and if you sparge) they don't run back down into the wort.
Many brewers don't realise that a lot of soluble protein (what we see as hot break) in a wort condenses at mashing temperatures and is trapped in a well recirculated grain bed, so I suppose you could say the wort was Purified I still think Clarified would be a better description.
Hopefully I'll be brewing tomorrow so I will try and take a couple of pictures to show what I'm talking about.

MHB