Specialty Grains - Questions

[Jase71]

So I thought I had better get my head around Beersmith, as it's only got three days until expiry. And among other things I'm stuck on the concept of using specialty grains such as crystal malt. All the information available from one of the two HBS I would likely buy from are all giving figures relating to the colour, and not the fermentable sugars it adds. Ditto with Beersmith.

So lets say for example I wanted to steep nothing but specialty grain, and for this scenario lets say 3kg. It appears that the OG barely moves, and that I'll have a very dark beer. What I don't understand is, if there's an extract efficiency of 70% (think I read that somewhere here), then where are all the fermentables in my OG from the grain ?

Also, the available ingredients list in Beersmith vary a lot from what's available, so I imagine you would just add new parameters depending on what's available, but where would one find such information ?

 

[rclemmett]

Specialty grains like crystal a roasted for longer and are less fermentable. Can't remember how it all works off the top of my head but there is heaps of info online.

 

[Pollux]

Jase....

Spec grains are normally used in lower quantities....I'm trying to picture a beer of all spec grain, just can't, do you plan to use any extract with it??

 

[Jase71]

Nothing on the cards yet, but I'm thinking of my next one already :icon_cheers: It appears that I'll stick to an all LDME, with a few small flavour extras (ie specialty grains, hops) for the time being. But the quest to push the boundaries is strong....... unfortunately my budget over the next few months is going to take a hit, due to a planned o/s adventure in early March, which means no money for equipment (perhaps BIAB is something I need to explore further)

Heaven forbid that I should stop brewing though. A man is not a camel.

 

[clean brewer]

Jase....

Spec grains are normally used in lower quantities....I'm trying to picture a beer of all spec grain, just can't, do you plan to use any extract with it??

Hey Jase,

Spec Grains are generally used as about 5% of the total Grist(Malt Bill, Extract etc) so if you were doing an All Extract brew with 3kg of Extract, you would generally use about 150-200gr of Specialty Malts.. And that is all you really need to enhance your Extract brews without them being to sweet, also depends on your Hopping schedule aswell..

 

[Wardhog]

Specialty grains like crystal a roasted for longer and are less fermentable. Can't remember how it all works off the top of my head but there is heaps of info online.

Less fermentable? I always thought it was all non-fermentable from crystal grain. I'm confused now :huh:

 

[Jase71]

According to Beersmith's output, a mere 25kg's of 60L Crystal malt on a 22litre batch will make a lovely 4.6% abv beer. And boy is it BLACK

 

[rclemmett]

Less fermentable? I always thought it was all non-fermentable from crystal grain. I'm confused now :huh:

Where's Butters when you need him?

I think they contain fermentable sugars, just not a lot. :huh:

 

[buttersd70]

Where's Butters when you need him?

I think they contain fermentable sugars, just not a lot. :huh:

lol.

Specialty grains do contain sugars which are fermentable, as rob said, just not a lot.
The (main) difference with specialty grains is that the conversion is already done as part of the kilning process. What they contribute more than anything is colour and flavour, but they do add a certain amount of fermentables and dextrins into the mix...used in 'normal' amounts, the actual contribution to the fermentables is minimal...in my Mild recipe, for example, which has 9% spec grains, they only account for 3 grav points out of 37 total. If you click on the grain itself, it will give you the theoretical potential of the grain. The actual extract from that depends on if its going to be mashed or steeped....not because mashing makes a difference, per se, because conversion is already done on this grain, but because of a/the longer time of the mash, b/the more controlled temperature (compared to close enough is good enough when steeping) and, c/ more efficient sparge; the sugars which are already available are more readily disolved into the wort.

The difference can be viewed in beersmith with the way it treats it....open a new recipe as all grain or partial mash. Add 1kg of caraaroma. Look at the gravity, then change the beer type to extract.....beersmith now assumes that the grain will be steeped, and the contribution to the gravity drops accordingly. It would appear that beersmith considers specialty grain contribution (as far as extract contribution) to be in the vicinity of 20%. Different software will give different extract efficiency for steeping...I don't know about promash, but brewsta for example will give 35-40% efficiency to any steeped grains.

edit: this also varies with the grain type.
check palmer, chapter 12 - he talks about the potential of steeping vs mashing spec grains. here

 

[Tony]

Specialty grains like Crystal malts have been kilned to darken the grain and also "crystalise" it. Basicly the kilning process converts the starches to sugars and then crystalises them. Wen you crack them nad add them to the mash they add colour to the brew and the sugars are extracted into the how water.

Thats why you dont need to mash them. They are already converted. Just steeping them in water will extract the fermentable sugars.

They wont produce as much sugar and generally the sugars are less fermentable.

As for how much sugar they produce in the brew...... thats going to depend on how well they are cracked and how thay are steeped with extract brewing. And more to cracking in the mash.

Im my beers that are full mash.... i tend to run all my specialty malts through the mill seperate to the base grain. I find the specialty grails crack finer this way and i get more bang for my buck

If you had promash.... it has the function to tell you SG per pound of malt per gallon of wort. I know thats american values but its a good guide for comparison between malts

For most base malts you will get 1.038 for 1 pound in one gallon

for crystal malts you will get between 1.033 and 1.035 per pound per gallon so its not much less.

Id say beer smith has it wrong but i cant be certain about that as i dont use it....... im sure someone with more knowledge in beersmith may be able to help you with that.

hope this helps a bit

cheers

PS..... i hope your not planning to use 3 kg of crystal!

 

[buttersd70]

Yeah, tony, the potentials are given in beersmith in ppg. I don't know how promash handles it, but when entered in the mash in beersmith, it will work it based on the actuall ppg and the efficiency of the mash overall. If you change the recipe to extract, it will assign 20-25% efficiency to the grain steep. As you said, just steeping them will extract the sugars,

thats going to depend on how well they are cracked and how thay are steeped with extract brewing

I think that in the case of beersmith, it considers that a mash is (as far as specialty grains are concerned) a much more efficient form of steeping, and it's banking on the fact that specs added to the mash are probably going to be properly crushed, giving more surface area available to the water for a longer time than a 'steep only' normaly would be in the case of an extract brew. As you say, its just another way of getting more bang for the buck...the mash doesn't make more sugar, it just extracts the sugar that is already present in the grain more effectively.

 

[Jase71]

It's now become more a theoretical than anything else, but it was interesting to crank up beersmith with nothing but specialty grains. An ugly proposition for a beverage!

So for the extract brewer, grain-style seems to be quite limiting then. I don't see a lot of malt powders on the market, with LDME being the most common, dark, amber, then wheat/barley combos, and that's about it. Seems an easier option to go straight for the unhopped liquid extracts - agruements aside for 'exact measures - that's where LDME can supplement I suppose - , where less mixing (and no dreaed clumping) makes the process a lot more seamless, then play around with hop varieties and small grain infusions.

As I write this, Im thinking, hang on, that's thousands of custom brews just there. Lets say with 10 varieties of hops, five varieties of LME, five varieties of steeping grain, it'll be a while before all the combinations are brewed.... that said I suppose I'm interested in the DIY aspect - for example if I make a curry I'm not one to go for the 'sauce in a jar', but prefer to start from the ground up. Although the difference between that and beer is that a coffee grinder is a lot more accessable than an AG setup

EDIT: One of these days I'd like to catch up with a local brewer and help them with an all-grain brew, just to get a better understanding of the process, whether I eventually pursue it or not. Oh Tony, did that young fellah end up coming round to yours last week for his apprenticeship? Haven't heard anything more, but he seemed a bit wary of you :lol:

 

[Tony]

Now this poses an interesting question that i cant answer.

Software calcs aside (and after trying it in promash it just assumes full extraction..... as it should IMO) what differnece does course/fine crush, water temp, and duration steeping have on the final extract of specialty grains.

I personaly cant see the point in sofware assuming the job isnt done properly. I would have thought it would be better to assume prpper methods and if people come up short they ask the question and learn some.

If i was only getting 20% extraction form $5+/kg specialty malts is be a bit pissed personaly.

Ok..... who is going to do the test?

I would if i could be bothered..... but im confidnet i get all i can from my specialties.

cheers

 

[Pollux]

Jase, if you want to up the grain bill, why not consider a partial mash??

Check my thread for ideas that both gavo and myself will be starting soon in terms of setup....

 

[buttersd70]

Basically with the spec malts, done in a steep in the usual quantaties, 'a coule of points' is going to be pretty well indicitive of what it will add as far as fermentables.....but what it adds in flavour far outweighs what it adds in fermentable sugar. Definately worth experimenting with steeping.....

Jase, in beersmith, when you add the grain (or if yougo into the grain section) and open up the details, there is a checkbox that says "must mash"...if this is unticked, it means that particular grain only needs to be steeped. Or in the Grain list, if in the details it says "must mash:false". (depends on which view you're in.)

It also gives reccomended percentages of how much of each grain type is commonly used, and in some cases what it is used for. (colour, head retention, depth of flavour or whetever.)

 

[Tony]

So for the extract brewer, grain-style seems to be quite limiting then.

Ahhhh no no no no NO!

Thats where this beersmith calc thing has led you astray.

Steeping grain in Promash gives me a 1.045 beer for about 5 or 6 kg of crystal in 23 liters and about 90 EBC.

would be shit beer but the sugars are what id expect.

Beersmith is assuming your an idiot and dont know how to properly sttp your grain to maxamise the sugar extraction........... go on.... someone say im wrong. Im sure someone will.

Edit: Butters and his check box may help out with this

If you steep your grain corectly for an extended period at a mash like temp that will extract the sugars but not the tannins, you will get a lot from your specialty malts.

I know od a lot of people that cold steep their cracked specialty malts over night in cold water and it works too.

I used to add the grain, warm it slowly to 70 deg and then let it cool overnight. This worked really well for me.

As for the Extract potential of various methods...... that would have to be proven in experiment like conditions.

cheers

 

[Gavo]

if i was only getting 20% extraction form $5+/kg specialty malts is be a bit pissed personaly.

Ok..... who is going to do the test?

I think that I have already unknowingly performed the test. I have done three extract brews with about 500 grams of specialty grains and each one I have come up with a couple of points higher for the OG than what Beersmith has calculated. :huh: Could be other factors involved of course. Maybe some further scientific testing is required.

Cheers
Gavo.

 

[Tony]

Jase?

Great opoptunity to learn something and pass it on to the brewing comunity.

It wont make a lick of difference to me personaly so would be a great project for ya i recon

cheers

 

[buttersd70]

Software calcs aside (and after trying it in promash it just assumes full extraction..... as it should IMO) what differnece does course/fine crush, water temp, and duration steeping have on the final extract of specialty grains.

..... but im confidnet i get all i can from my specialties.

I agree with you, Tony, I don't see why it would automatically assume that your steep will be less effective than putting it in the mash; but it does. I'm not saying I agree with beersmith on this one, just that this is what beersmith does...

The crush, temp, and duration will only effect it, imo, in as far as how readily the sugar disolves into the water....I look at it in terms of surface area, a bit like trying to disolve coarse sugar vs disolving castor sugar. They will both disolve, given time, but the castor sugar will have an easier time of it, and will disolve faster....particularly if the water is hot. Which is why a hot steep should only take about 20 minutes, weras a cold steep will take hours, to get the same effect. I don't see that one is necessarily more or less effective than the other, as long as in either case they are done for the appropriate amount of time. But if you just lightly crack the grain (not crush it), and put it cold water for 20 minutes, your solution will be a hell of a lot lighter than if the grain was milled and held at 60-70 for 20 mins. Put that same grain in water overnight, though, and you won't notice much difference at all. I can only assume that Beersmith does what it does to incorporate a level of 'idiot proofing' into itself. People are less likely to bitch if it understimates the gravity by a couple of points, than if it were to overestimate the gravity by a couple of points.

EDIT: somehow I missed Tonys post #16....

Beersmith is assuming your an idiot and dont know how to properly sttp your grain to maxamise the sugar extraction........... go on.... someone say im wrong. Im sure someone will.

That someone won't be me....that is exactly what beersmith appears to be assuming.

If you steep your grain corectly for an extended period at a mash like temp that will extract the sugars but not the tannins, you will get a lot from your specialty malts.

This is the point I've been trying to make, but probably didn't verbalise it as well as this. If the steep is treated like a mash on a very small scale, with the same care and attention to time, temperature, and water volumes, the steep will yield excellent results.

 

[Tony]

YEah thats preety much what i was getting at. The crush, temp and duration will play the biggest effect.

I htink if you have a course crush with large bits mostly in the grist..... you will want a warm soak for a longer time like an hour.

With a finer well crushed grist you wont need as long but as long as you dpnt heat it up too much, time wone be a big issue.

People are less likely to bitch if it understimates the gravity by a couple of points, than if it were to overestimate the gravity by a couple of points.

I find it sad that they assume you dont know what your doing. Perhaps they should explain how to do it properly and if your not getting the corect numbers. you ask why.

but thats just me i guess

Edit: not saying your an idiot butters......... your not.

But beersmith seens to assume it of brewers if it thinks people cant steep grain properly. thats all.

didnt mean to come across the wrong way

cheers