Source Of Infection

[Corellion]

Ok, so yesterday I had the joy of pouring two fermentors' worth of beer into the garden. I'd just grabbed the fermentors to start bottling, after a two weeks in primary and two weeks in secondary, only to discover a beautiful white cracked film floating on the surface *sob*.

So from what I know (and the god-awful smell), this is indication of some sort of yeast-infection, or possibly just a straight-out bacterial infection, right? The odour wasn't readily identifiable as anything more than "alcoholic" (I'd call it vaguely like propanol from experience in other realms of life).

My question now is this - why? why were my lovely brews invaded by nasties? Both brews died, one was a kit&kilo Coopers Canadian Blonde, the other a partial-mash pseudo-wheat-ale, both made on the same day, both with unopened packs of dried yeast (no starter used). Didn't notice anything astray when racking...

My theories are:
1) Was horrendously busy at work during the month (hence the long times in fermentor) ... was the full month in two different fermentors just pushing my luck. Is it risky to leave beer lying around "unprotected" so long?
2) Was away for a week and a half, during which Perth hit some stupidly hot temperatures (very high 30's) ... is temperature a contributor?
3) Was I just plain sloppy with sterilisation?

I realise it's tempting to suggest improper sterilisation, and obviously quite possible, but I've NEVER had sterilisation issues before ... which is why I'm wondering what the other sources of this nasty white film may be...

Please help, I need some advice so I can rectify the issue and get another batch (or five) on...

 

[Ross]

Corellion,

A brew transfered to secondary after 2 weeks & then left at high temperatures for a further 2 weeks with no protective layer of CO2 is asking for trouble...
If it was all fermented out after 2 weeks, you should have transferred to secondary & refridgerated. If you can't refridgerate I'd personally leave it for 3 weeks in primary & than rack, bulk prime & bottle straight away.

edit: speeling

cheers Ross...

 

[Aaron]

Not knowing your process it would be most likely it is a sanitation issue. I have been through a bunch of batches that were infected recently. It is a real pain.

Do you pull your fermenter taps apart?
Do you remove the O rings and grommets when cleaning/sanitising?
What do you use for sanitation?

I have been going through the process of giving all of my equipment a good bleach soak to make sure everything is dead. I also now leave some "one shot" solution in my fermenters and my equipment whilst storing.

 

[Screwtop]

For my 2 bobs worth, probably was ok. Just a bit whiffy from a high temp fermentation, what did it taste like. Would have thought there would have been enough Co2 out of suspension at that temp to protect it well enough for 2 weeks in secondary. Still like Ross advised should have been put to bed in the fridge.

 

[Darren]

My advice would have been not to dump it. It may have gotten better in the bottle..
cheers
Darren

 

[Ross]

My advice would have been not to dump it. It may have gotten better in the bottle..
cheers
Darren

[post="109725"][/post]​

Yep,

I've certainly saved a brew before, that got the dreaded film; but then I keg. Which is a lot less hassle if you have to end up tipping it...

cheers Ross

 

[vlbaby]

My theories are:
1) Was horrendously busy at work during the month (hence the long times in fermentor) ... was the full month in two different fermentors just pushing my luck. Is it risky to leave beer lying around "unprotected" so long?
2) Was away for a week and a half, during which Perth hit some stupidly hot temperatures (very high 30's) ... is temperature a contributor?
3) Was I just plain sloppy with sterilisation?

I realise it's tempting to suggest improper sterilisation, and obviously quite possible, but I've NEVER had sterilisation issues before ... which is why I'm wondering what the other sources of this nasty white film may be...

Please help, I need some advice so I can rectify the issue and get another batch (or five) on...

[post="109719"][/post]​

Corellion,
In my experience, long times in the fermenter isnt a big deal. I'm sure the trub in the bottom of the fermenter contributes to the flavour in some negative way, but not enough for you to call it a 'tip into the garden failure'.
High Temperatures however have fooled me to be an infection due to high amount of esters it produces. A high temperature ferment can produce an apple cidar effect similar to the way an infection can. The difference i have noted is that a high temp ferment " cidar flavour" will subside with time, wheres an infection will just get worse with time.
Sterlisation however, i would say is the most likely cause. Especially if your relying on sodium met as your sterlisation solution. I have had 2 or 3 brews die after trusting sodium met. I now use iodophor and havent had an infected brew since. Aparently sodium met is just an inhibitor not a killing agent. I'm sorry for the laymans explaination, but this is how i understand it to be.
Anyhow i hope my own experience on this matter helps.


cheers


vlbaby.

 

[Darren]

vlbaby is right. Sodium met is possibly the worst sanitiser you could use. Bleach (chlorine) is cheap and effective. Just make sure you rinse it and don't use it on stainles steel.

cheers
Darren

 

[GMK]

Ok - if u read wild brews (Thanks Wee Stu) and someone will correct me if i am wrong - taht white film is good and bad.
it is a form of Lacto Basilus which acts to prevent oxidation - good bit it continues to eat residual sugars -bad which detract from the body and can give a lambic taste - sometimes.
Some of my best beers taht have done well at comps have had a white film on them

Best advice is to always taste first before you throw.
Also, rack to secondary and refrigerate if possible.

Hope this helps

 

[Screwtop]

As GMK says, Lacto exists to some degree in all ferments.

 

[Lindsay Dive]

I'll go with Ross, a good layer of Co2 is the go. I've had it once but not again.

 

[Corellion]

ok:

ROSS: I was under the impression a brew left on primary trub was begging for the development of off flavours? I realise this may spark yet-another-new-topic, but from waht I've read here at AHB I was under the distinct impression that if you're gonna rack, you want to get away from the primary pretty quick? But yes, thankyou ... I appreciate that the CO2 deficit may have caused some issues, though I'd neglected this at the time of my initial post...

LACTO: Taste? Well, they tasted way too thin-bodied for my liking, well under my expectations from the recipes, and though at 20degC and uncarbonated, the taste was so alcoholic it was more like a shot of vodka than a thin-bodied beer - hence my likening to propanol and the fear of highly-developed fusel alcohols from a high-T ferment/conditioning

VLBABY/DARREN: hmmm ... I use sodium metabicarbonate (active ingredient in the napisan family of sanitisers), and have been using said method for my last six brews without hassle (don't trust bleach with plastics, especially rubber, and don't trust the risk of sulfurous after-effects from sodium met, even in a lager) ... may look into the inhibition 'vs destruction issue though, as perhaps it's just starting to show now...

ALL: I did actually manage to keep a couple bottles of the KnK Canadian Blonde before I decided it wasn't worth the effort of bottling the whole batch, so I can at least let you know if the flavour improves over time...

BUT, I assume the general consesus is that a harsh, alcoholic flavour to the beer + white film = infection related to poor sanitisation, or spoiling from extended exposure whilst sitting in secondary? No anecdotal evidence of alternate ways of killing your beer?

 

[deadly]

I think you chucked it for nothing,brewed at high temp k+k and it tasted thin? if it was an infection you would have to spit it out.I have never dumped a brew from the fermenter,your better to bottle/keg it first and give it some time just to be sure.

 

[stephen]

I think you chucked it for nothing,brewed at high temp k+k and it tasted thin? if it was an infection you would have to spit it out.I have never dumped a brew from the fermenter,your better to bottle/keg it first and give it some time just to be sure.

[post="109814"][/post]​

I've thrown out several brews straight from the fermenter. One of them had stuff blowing out the airlock for seven days straight and the stench was gag material. I don't waste my time or effort in bottling or kegging stuff that has a definite off flavour with one exception: I currently have a dunkel weizen in a keg that is getting worse as time goes on - was an element of doubt at kegging time but has defintely proved itself to be off. Another lot of drain cleaner!!!

Steve

 

[vlbaby]

ok:

VLBABY/DARREN: hmmm ... I use sodium metabicarbonate (active ingredient in the napisan family of sanitisers), and have been using said method for my last six brews without hassle (don't trust bleach with plastics, especially rubber, and don't trust the risk of sulfurous after-effects from sodium met, even in a lager) ... may look into the inhibition 'vs destruction issue though, as perhaps it's just starting to show now...

[post="109784"][/post]​

I always thought that the main active ingredient in napisan was sodium percarbonate, which i believe is a very mild sanitising agent. I sometimes use it as a first wash of my fermenters, but i certainly wouldnt use it as a complete sanitising solution.
The sodium met i was referring to is actually sodium metasulphite and is available from most hbs. I used to use this product myself and got away with it for quite a while with no infections. But then my luck turned, and i started to produce a beer or 2 that would taste like vinegar or would gush when the bottle was opened etc etc.
I learned that you cannot judge the quality of your sanitisation based on the fact that your previous brews turned out ok. I beleive i just was lucky for a while and then my luck ran out.
Anyway as far as the effectiveness of napisan as your main sanitiser, I cannot really vouch for it myself as I have not exclusively used it before. Maybe some other brewers here have some experience with it.

good luck

 

[agro]

I also wouldn't rely on a single steriliser.

I use bleach to soak all equipment prior to, and after a brew. Cheap, effecive - although hell on any T-Shirts you may be wearing at the time <_<

I then spray everything with Iodophor before use as a 'just in case'.

I also think Napisan is better as a cleanser then a steriliser.

So far so good. The only time I thought I had an infection was a batch of apple cider. As it turns out, Apple Cider is _meant_ to smell really foul and cleans up nicely after a couple of months in the bottle.

My 2c.

Agro.

 

[Corellion]

ok:

VLBABY/DARREN: hmmm ... I use sodium metabicarbonate (active ingredient in the napisan family of sanitisers), and have been using said method for my last six brews without hassle (don't trust bleach with plastics, especially rubber, and don't trust the risk of sulfurous after-effects from sodium met, even in a lager) ... may look into the inhibition 'vs destruction issue though, as perhaps it's just starting to show now...

[post="109784"][/post]​

I always thought that the main active ingredient in napisan was sodium percarbonate, which i believe is a very mild sanitising agent. I sometimes use it as a first wash of my fermenters, but i certainly wouldnt use it as a complete sanitising solution.
The sodium met i was referring to is actually sodium metasulphite and is available from most hbs. I used to use this product myself and got away with it for quite a while with no infections. But then my luck turned, and i started to produce a beer or 2 that would taste like vinegar or would gush when the bottle was opened etc etc.
I learned that you cannot judge the quality of your sanitisation based on the fact that your previous brews turned out ok. I beleive i just was lucky for a while and then my luck ran out.
Anyway as far as the effectiveness of napisan as your main sanitiser, I cannot really vouch for it myself as I have not exclusively used it before. Maybe some other brewers here have some experience with it.

good luck

[post="109827"][/post]​

*cough* ... yes, you're correct ... sodium percarbonate is of course the chemical I was hunting for, but apparently it's not all that safe to drink & post at the same time! :huh:

I have, to date, been using this as my "complete sanitation schedule", on the advice of a friend, but perhaps I might just have a go at using something different for the next batch(s).

What do you mean by "gush when the bottle was opened"? This is something I haven't heard of before, but have encountered with a few bottles of a "Redback clone" I put down a while back...

Cheers for your advice mate.

 

[DrewCarey82]

Lately all that I use is sodium precarbonate "Homebrand nappi treatment" $2.25 for a 1kg lot @ woolies, and everything comes up a treat without fail. Bonus is high pressure hot water is all you need to rinse it saving you $$$ on the electricity bill.

And I just spray all equipment with Iodophor prior to use and leave for 20 mins before use as its non rinse.

 

[Stuster]

What do you mean by "gush when the bottle was opened"? This is something I haven't heard of before, but have encountered with a few bottles of a "Redback clone" I put down a while back...

[post="109859"][/post]​

Gushers are usually due to infection, or overpriming. If drinking when bottling, it is all too easy to add double lots of sugar to some bottles. (A reason to switch to bulk priming I think, not a reason to stop drinking when bottling. )

If it's due to infection, it tends to get worse with time, and it's best to drink them quick, put the bottles in the fridge if you can, and worst case scenario dump them. If you don't, there is the danger of bottle bombs, which can be very nasty. I had a couple last year, and luckily they went off when nobody was near them. Glass all over the garage. If you still have any of those bottles, best to do something about it straight away.

Cheers

 

[pint of lager]

When you pitch your yeast, there are a range of different malt sugars present. The molecules are of varying lengths and depending on the yeast you are using, they have different capabilities to utilise the different molecules.

Normally, the yeast reaches a point where it can no longer utilise the longer chain sugars and flocculates out.

If you are unfortunate to have your brew infected with a super attenuater infection, which utilises the longer chain molecules left, this will cause overcarbonation in the bottles, and the beer gushes when you take the top off.

Usually, brews that have a scum, are aerobic, they need oxygen to work. Sometimes you can get away with bottling the batch and leaving the last few cm behind in the fermneter. Then consume the batch as soon as it carbonates.

The comments about high ferment temps increasing the harsher alcohols and good cleaners and sanitisers are all good.