Smack Pack Viability

[jimi]

I've done plenty wyeast smack pack / activators before and always found them to be a great product and easy to use. I've always waited till they've been fully swollen before pitching and generally this had taken a couple of days or less, but I'm aware that the others people have had packs that have taken a bit longer.
I've currently got one of these slow swellers (it's a the wyeast 2112 Cal Lager) and it's been at 24C for nearly a week and it's got me thinking about the quality, quantity and viability of the smack pack.

The pack has printed on it "MFG May 08" which I assume to be the manufactory date (could it be the use by?). I haven't worried too much about "use bys" in the past as I know other people who have activated yeast 2 and 3 yrs past their due date and like I mentioned before I've never had a slow swelling pack before.

However now that I have a slow sweller it's got me thinking. I had assumed the swell of the pack confirmed the yeast cell count and activity, but the "swell" is the CO2 released NOT yeast numbers, so surely a "slow" sweller should indicate less yeast. ie it would take two people a long time to blow up 100 ballons but 50 only a little time. Therefore the "speed" of the pack swell would be the best indicator of yeast cell numbers and health.

I know yeast numbers and health can be affect by storage and I've always kept mine refridgerated and they've usually been sent in packs with some ice to keep cool during transport.

Two questions then - Assuming the above is correct, how much of a guarantee is the cell count on the pack?
If the slow swell indicates poor reproduction rate/health in a nutrient rich sanitized environment, is making a starter really going to improve the yeast health? Wouldn't a starter only offer more nutrient to increase numbers and if the yeast is not showing good health in one nutrient rich environment ie smack pack why would it show good health in a starter.
Wouldn't poor health/reproduction = off flavours??


Thoughts?? especially those who have had slow swellers

Ps Lets limit the all too easy "problems swelling" gags

 

[buttersd70]

wyeast say on their website

Full swelling of Activator packages is not required for their use. The contents of Activator packages may be direct-pitched without prior activation. Our smack pack technology is intended to be a tool for your use in determining viability, and in initiating metabolism for faster starts to fermentation.

They go on to state that assuming correct storage and transport, they guarantee for 6 months.

I had one that didn't swell at all (this was the first time I had used wyeast, and it got me really worried). The end result was that I pitched the no swell one without a starter.....and it still went off OK. And it was still kicking strong 8 generations later when I finally replaced it.....so I wouldn't be overly concerned about it.

Make a starter, and pitch it at high krausen, and I'm fairly sure it won't be an issue.

 

[bigfridge]

Two questions then - Assuming the above is correct, how much of a guarantee is the cell count on the pack?
If the slow swell indicates poor reproduction rate/health in a nutrient rich sanitized environment, is making a starter really going to improve the yeast health? Wouldn't a starter only offer more nutrient to increase numbers and if the yeast is not showing good health in one nutrient rich environment ie smack pack why would it show good health in a starter.
Wouldn't poor health/reproduction = off flavours??


Thoughts?? especially those who have had slow swellers

Ps Lets limit the all too easy "problems swelling" gags

Buttersd70 answers most of your points but I would just like to add - are you sure that you smacked it ? Is the nutrient pack actually broken ? Has it swolen at all ?

The 'MFG May 08' is the manufactured date - that's what MFG stands for. Depending on the condition of the yeast it can take a full week to fully swell. As an example I smacked a 2565 Koelsch dated Mar08 on Tuesday and it was like a stallion by Saturday, but I have found that lagers can take quite a bit longer. The swelling just indicates viability - there is not much yeast growth once you smack them. You need a starter to get more cells.

As has been suggested you can either make a starter or return it to where you bought it for a full refund or replacement. Most resellers offer a full guaruntee provided the pack hasn't been opened.

Dave

 

[hockadays]

Make sure the inner has actually popped. I had one that no matter how many times I smacked it it just wouldn't pop. Turned out the plastic pouch had way to much plastic around it.

 

[PostModern]

If in doubt, make a starter.

 

[jimi]

The inner nutrient pack definately opened.

Doing a starter and tasting it will get cell numbers up, but won't a small starter of lager yeast fermented at 24C be hard to distiguish between its appropriate flavour? And isn't health/fitness of yeast related to speed of reproduction?

If I do a starter and open the pack it's too late to return if dodgey and I won't know if it's dodgey till I do a brew with it unless I take I take the slow swelling as a definative sign of poor health.

Dammed if I do dammed if I don't

Or am I just being paranoid / overly cautious??

 

[bigfridge]

If I do a starter and open the pack it's too late to return if dodgey and I won't know if it's dodgey till I do a brew with it unless I take I take the slow swelling as a definative sign of poor health.

Dammed if I do dammed if I don't

Or am I just being paranoid / overly cautious??

Not paranoid at all. You have legitimate concerns about a product that you have bought so I would suggest that you discuss it with the retailler that you bought it from. If they don't know, then they should ask the wholesaler that they bought it from etc. Liquid yeast is expensive and so it is important that you get the best from it.

Perhaps you could suggest that you would like to send it back for a replacement as it hasn't swelled but in order to save time and money you are willing to give a starter a go. If it fires then well and good, but if not they owe you a replacement.

But honestly if it hasn't swelled within a week then I fear that you have a dud on your hands and it has either been frozen or cooked somewhere between Oregon and your place. The problem is that you could have such a small number of stressed yeast that they have had their DNA damaged and so have lost some of their most important systems. These cannot be repaired by growth as you need a new, undamaged, population.

I have smacked 3 year old pack that have behaved better than yours, so it is not the age of the yeast that is the problem.

Good luck,
David

 

[trevc]

I'm having the exact same issue with a wyeast 2112 mfg: "12MAY08" purchased from G&G. Smacked it 4 days ago, it's been in fairly warm weather... nothing so far. I'll likely get a starter going soon to see what's really going on. This it my first activator/propagator that hasn't shown any swelling. Usually they're pretty fast.

 

[Back Yard Brewer]

If in doubt, make a starter.

Actually that is something that never dawned on me. Will keep that one for future reference. As yet I have not had any issues but on occassions there are some HBS flogging them off cheap because of their age.

Further more and as a matter of interest is good practice to have a lager yeast incubating at 24c? Me, I am not sure as I have as yet not made a Lager or Pilsner but in the not to distant future I will be giving it a go.


BYB

 

[newguy]

I quite regularly use old smack packs (the oldest was 5+ years), and my advice is to always make a starter. That, and plan well ahead. I smack my packs about 2 weeks before my anticipated brew day. That gives me a week to allow for the pack to swell, and a week to build up a starter. Most times I only need one week. The 5 year old pack only took a week to swell. I don't believe the advertising that a pack is sufficient for a normal 20-odd litre batch, and that's why I always build up a starter.

If your pack takes more than a week to swell, I'd say that there is something wrong with it. Even the packs that friends have forgotten/lost in their cars, over winter (-40C), have only taken a week to swell.

.....And you're right about yeast health = off flavours. Ensure a good healthy starter is pitched and the wort is sufficiently oxygenated and you'll be fine.

 

[Screwtop]

Actually that is something that never dawned on me. Will keep that one for future reference. As yet I have not had any issues but on occassions there are some HBS flogging them off cheap because of their age.

Further more and as a matter of interest is good practice to have a lager yeast incubating at 24c? Me, I am not sure as I have as yet not made a Lager or Pilsner but in the not to distant future I will be giving it a go.


BYB

Lots of confusion re the diff between Lager/Ale yeasts. Lager yeasts are strains that have the ability to ferment at lower temps without dropping out, unlike ale strains. Thats it! Send an email off to Wyeast and ask about growing yeast/making starters with your particular strain, they always reply with good info. Multiplication of cells is done at warmer temps than fermentation (faster = less expensive, if in doubt tick cost!). If you don't want to introduce the flavours/eters/fusils produced in your starter at warmer temps into your beer then refrigerate your starter, get it down to 0 and once it has dropped clear pour off the beer then add a little wort and let it come up to fermentation temp. Once it fires up, pitch it to the remaining wort. Watch pitching rates with lagers, build up the correct amount of slurry using starters.

Screwy

 

[jimi]

My starter is also a bit lethargic so I did end up ringing G&G last night and I spoke to Nick about the yeast. He said that he's used the yeast a bit and that wyeast suggest it takes about 12 days to fully activate. I haven't found such a time period on the wyeast site, but I'll take his word for it and keep my fingers crossed.
Anyone else use this yeast a bit and find that it takes awhile to get going?

 

[Rod]

just did a smack pack

smacked it , felt like it broke the inner

left it for two days

made my starter yesterday

went to add pack and found it had not broken the inner

added both lots of liquid

it's off and running today

 

[Stuster]

He said that he's used the yeast a bit and that wyeast suggest it takes about 12 days to fully activate.

I've only used it once, but it started up really quickly for me, probably puffed up in about a day. I have never had one take anything close to 12 days or heard of any packs taking anything like that long. :blink:

 

[SJW]

I am going to be using Wyeast 1968 London ESB for the first time soon in a 1.053 OG brew. Providied the pack swells fast should I bother with a starter? I hate making starters.

Steve

 

[reviled]

He said that he's used the yeast a bit and that wyeast suggest it takes about 12 days to fully activate.

Sounds like he might have "Just been saying that?"

Considering the pack says it will swell in three hours, 12 days seems a bit excessive!

 

[Hutch]

I am going to be using Wyeast 1968 London ESB for the first time soon in a 1.053 OG brew. Providied the pack swells fast should I bother with a starter? I hate making starters.

Steve

Absolutely.
I am a recent convert to pitching BIG (consistently better beers), and the only way is to make a big starter. The WYeast cell count drops off dramatically with age, and I don't believe WYeast's claims that there is a pitchable quantity in one smack-pack, particularly with a few/several months after MFG date, and the perils of transport half way around the world.

With the right equipment, and a little effort, starters are a painless and routine part of brewing.
* DIY stir-plate
* Erlenmeyer Flask
* Pre-measured dose of DME/yeast nutrient mix ready to make up 1.040 SG.
10 minute boil on the stove, cover with Al foil, and leave overnight to cool. Pitch in the morning, and chuck on stir-plate for 24-48 hours. Minimal time spent, ready to pitch a few days later.

:icon_offtopic:
Just as an interesting side-note, making a 1968 starter is a great exercise in observing this yeast strain in action. It never really mixes thouroughly in the starter wort, looking a bit like a water/oil mix, with the light coloured yeast sinking to the bottom fast. Even having it on a stir-plate you can see the yeast swirling around, a bit like the coloured bands around Jupiter

 

[PostModern]

Stir plates are great. I don't use one, however. I'm keeping it old skool with a PET bottle and shake-shake-shake.

 

[reviled]

Stir plates are great. I don't use one, however. I'm keeping it old skool with a PET bottle and shake-shake-shake.

I like using a PET bottle and just unscrewing the lid every now and then, gives you a nice waft of esters when you crack the lid...

 

[SJW]

The sad thing is I made a great stir plate and have a 100ml, 1 litre and a 2 litre flask, its just that I dont like the associated rick of infection or off flavours by doing starters if I dont need to, that or thae fact I am just lazy