Smack Pack - Slow Starting

[dago001]

Hi all.
Had a brew day approx 2 weeks ago and had a smack pack of Wyeast 2258 Rasenmaher Lager to use. It had been in the fridge for about 4 months. I got it out the day before to let it warm up to room temp and smacked that night. Next day nothing so pitched with a different yeast. Brewed again next day and checked smack pack and still nothing - so I just threw it into the brew room and left it. Anyway, went into the brew room last night (10 day later) to get ready for brewday and the smack pack was fully expanded, so I assume the yeast has finally activated.
My question is - Is the yeast still ok to use?. I'm not sure when the yeast started working, but it has not been subject to any extreme temperature changes (hey, I live in Tassie, ok).
I was thinking about making a starter to test the yeast, but could just as easy pump out a quick lager as well. Or do I just chuck it?

Cheers
LagerBomb

 

[HeavyNova]

In my limited experience with smack packs I found that it's best to allow 1 day per month past manufacture date (printed on the packet) for the yeast to fully bloat the packet. I'd say that if they blow up then they're definately active and kicking in there so unless you'r putting down ahigh alcohol brew or a lager, I'd say that the packet would have been fine to pitch. In fact they say you can pitch without the smack part which makes sense - it'll still wake up and get going, just might take a little longer.

 

[dago001]

Thanks for the reply HeavyNova, but seeing as it is a lager yeast, I am hoping to brew a lager with it. I can understand not using it for a high alc brew, but why not a lager.
Cheers
LagerBomb

 

[Florian]

You'll be fine with a lager, after all this yeast is a lager yeast. You'll see from the Wyeast blurp that it's suited from 9 to 20 degrees and up to 9% alc tolerance.
I have a packet of the same yeast from last August, smacked it last Wednesday I think and it only started swelling today. Depending on your pitching temp you might want to create a starter to get your yeast cell count up though.

Wyeast 2252-PC Rasenmher Lager Yeast
Beer Styles: Light American Lager, Munich Helles, Vienna Lager, Classic American Pilsner
Profile: This versatile lager strain is an excellent choice for brewing your favorite low alcohol lawnmower beer. Fermentations at low temperatures will produce clean lagers that accentuate the malt character of the beer. At high temperatures this strain maintains much of the lager character, but will also yield a mild ester profile that compliments hop aromas and flavors.

Alc. Tolerance 9% ABV
Flocculation low
Attenuation 73-77%
Temp. Range 48-68F (9-20C)

 

[Malted]

Thanks for the reply HeavyNova, but seeing as it is a lager yeast, I am hoping to brew a lager with it. I can understand not using it for a high alc brew, but why not a lager.
Cheers
LagerBomb

Pitching rates for lagers is about twice that of an ale, same with a high gravity beer.
You could always use a starter to 'step up' the yeast to an appropriate pitching rate. That way you can chuck it into the larger when it is at full krausen (healthy, bubbly, full activity)

You can find a pitching rate calculator here: Mr Malty Online Pitching Rate Calculator LINK

 

[argon]

anytime i've had an old smakpak that has taken a while... i'll do a starter. Just because the pack took a while to blow up, so the numbers are probably not that great. Especially considering your doing a lager and fermenting cold(?), do yourself a big starter and take the worry out of it. Shortening up your lag time and reducing yeast stress can only be good for your beer.

I wouldn't shortcut by just pitching the pack.

 

[dago001]

Thanks for the replies.
I think I will pitch it tomorrow and see what happens. Will be pitching around 16 degrees and fermenting at the same temp. Hopefully all goes well. I have not had this happen before, although I have only used a couple of smack packs.
Cheers
LagerBomb

 

[dago001]

Starter on the go - I will leave it until next week, and work the starter up to a healthy level for a lager
Cheers
LagerBomb

 

[Malted]

Starter on the go - I will leave it until next week, and work the starter up to a healthy level for a lager
Cheers
LagerBomb

It is better to build up the number of yeast cells through a series of steps and add them all to the brew when they are in full swing rather than add the smack pack to a volume of starter liquid, let them go for it then go to sleep again and at the end of the week add them to the feremeter.

Remember a starter is a building up process of steps not just a timed process. It may not take a week. Maybe smack pack into 1 litre, 24 hours, add another litre, 24 hours, add another litre, 24 hours, pitch. This is just a wild guess, there are more learned fellows here who could give better advice on steps. Good hygeine for each step or else each one is a risk.

Other things to do: pick the starter up and give it a swirl every time you walk past it. This will allow co2 in solution to escape, allow a bit of o2 to enter and will rouse the yeast so they are more distributed through the solution. Glad wrap over a clean and sterilised jar or bottle is a good starter vessel.
Gravity of starter should be about 1.040 which is about 100g of dry malt extract to 1 litre of water (boil it and in a covered container let it cool or put in an ice bath etc).

At any rate, making a starter of the yeast of any sort is going to give it more of a fighting chance in the brew than if you pitched straight from the old smack pack.

 

[dago001]

Thanks Malted - Pretty much what I am now planning. I have pitched the yeast onto a 1 litre starter, and will "upsize" it from there over the next week or so. I mentioned next week as I am only hoping that it will be ready by then, but I will wait until it is ready. I would have thought that the original smack pack would have had enough healthy yeast cells to pitch straight away, as that is what I would have done if all had gone to plan. Surely wyeast package these yeasts with enough healthy cells to pitch without making a starter (which is how I have previously done this), however being a few months old, I will be happy if this works, so I can harvest some yeast from the fermenter.
Cheers
LagerBomb

 

[donburke]

Thanks Malted - Pretty much what I am now planning. I have pitched the yeast onto a 1 litre starter, and will "upsize" it from there over the next week or so. I mentioned next week as I am only hoping that it will be ready by then, but I will wait until it is ready. I would have thought that the original smack pack would have had enough healthy yeast cells to pitch straight away, as that is what I would have done if all had gone to plan. Surely wyeast package these yeasts with enough healthy cells to pitch without making a starter (which is how I have previously done this), however being a few months old, I will be happy if this works, so I can harvest some yeast from the fermenter.
Cheers
LagerBomb

everything sound normal so far,

this is a great yeast to make a hoppy lager with, it is pretty much my house strain

if you are making a malt driven lager, ferment it at 10deg

if you want a hoppy lager, ferment at 14 or 15 with plenty of late hop additions that will come through

this yeast ages quickly and you will find you need very little (if any) ageing/lagering

 

[dago001]

everything sound normal so far,

this is a great yeast to make a hoppy lager with, it is pretty much my house strain

if you are making a malt driven lager, ferment it at 10deg

if you want a hoppy lager, ferment at 14 or 15 with plenty of late hop additions that will come through

this yeast ages quickly and you will find you need very little (if any) ageing/lagering

A hoppy lager is what I planned with this yeast - somethong along the line of a golden ale, except a golden lager. Fermented around the 14 to 16 degrees. Was thinking along the lines of

20l batch

2.5kg golden promise
1.5kg JW Pilsner
bitter with Northern Brewer to about 18
Late hop with Nelson Sauvin at 10 mins

I normally use the California Lager yeast - which has been good to get lagers into kegs quickly, and ferments at a higher temp without any noticeable problems (around 16 or 18 degrees). I have been using golden promise malt in my lagers for a while, seems to go well for the style that I brew, which is trying to replicate a good style of commercial lager for the wife and mates. I personally prefer a darker beer, and have used the cal lager to brew some pretty good dark lagers.
Cheers
LagerBomb

 

[Thirsty Boy]

People seem to misunderstand what the "smack" in the smack pack is about. It has nothing to do with activating your yeast and getting it ready to pitch, it would in fact make 2/3rds of bugger all difference to the performance of a given smack pack if you just cut off the top and poured it in without smacking it at all.

The whole reason for a "smack pack" is so that you are able to gauge the health and viability of your yeast before you pitch it. It is in fact simply "proofing" your yeast so you know its not dead or dying.

Smack the pack and it swells up in an hour or two.... hooray, your yeast is in rip roaring condition. GO
Smack the Pack and it never swells up ... all your yeast is dead.
And in between those two extremes are a variety of "your yeast isn't dead... but its not exactly in the best shape either" options.

Guess which end of the scale taking 10 days to swell up falls at? Your yeast was nearly rooted and probably only a few percent of the cells that were alive and well when it was packed were still alive, but probably not all that well when you smacked it. After 10 days out of the fridge... most of the ones that were left in the first place are probably dead too.

You absolutely need that starter, and you should probably have started it at 100 or 250ml and built it up from there - exactly as though you only had a 10th or 20th of the original smack pack to start with. To pitch the proper amount of yeast for a cold brewed lager you need a multiple liter starter, on a stirplate, from a perfectly fresh pack... god knows what you'll need to do with the half a dozen sickly arsed cells that would have been left in that smack pack.

 

[dago001]

Thanks for that Thirsty. I was thinking the wrong way with the smack pack, but what you have said certainly makes sense. I have made a starter from what little healthy yeast were left, and will treat this like an experiment of sorts. Starter seems to be working in as much as there is co2 being given off. Got the wort in the fridge, so I will wait to see if I can get the yeast up to a viable level.
Cheers
LagerBomb
Apologies if this doesnt make sense, just finished my first night shift for this block - been up for over 24 hours without sleep. Going to bed now.

 

[dago001]

Just a quick update. I made a starter with the smack pack and stepped it up over a week or so to end up with a 1.5 litre starter. Pitched it into the wort and waited to see the results. No activity for about 24 hours then noticed krausen starting to form. Anyway, about 1 week later, brew looks pretty good. Hydrometer check this morning gives a reading of 1012 - down from 1050.
Attached photo is after 5 days fermenting.
Cheers
LagerBomb