Selling Your Beer

[Ducatiboy stu]

If its got alcohol in it, the ATO want to know about it, regardless of what type of beverage it is.

And selling cider by the glass at farmers markets....are you serious, you really are ill-informed. If a publican can be fined $10k for serving drunks, imaging what the police will do when they see selling illegal cider without a licence at a market...., your going to need plenty of keg lube with those prison greens

 

[bigfridge]

Yeah, I have to admit I didn't realise about the excise license stuff - it doesn't apply to wine or cider. I guess the government considers beer producers to be a much bigger risk than cider producers. Fair enough, they are a pretty disreputable bunch. still, if you can't post ill-informed opinion on a site like this I don't know what it is for. If you make cider you don't have to bother with all that stuff, just get a producer/wholesalers license and go for it. You can sell by the glass or at farmers markets, no trouble.

I stand by my comments about enforcement, there really isn't any enforcement of these things, the days of Al Capone vs the revenue men is long gone. But I also think, even if it was legal, it would hardly be worth it.

Just when I think that the message may be getting through, you go and prove that you haven't learnt a thing from this thread.

Firstly, the info I posted was for brewing BEER - wine is treated totally differently as a producers license allows you to also sell at markets. Brewers can't do this !

The enforcement doesn't usually come from government officers. You will certainly be dobbed in by one of your customers who either don't like your beer or or jealous that you are 'living the dream' that they can't afford.

If they don't put you in, one of the other breweries or wineries in the area will complain about you getting a 'free ride' and that your lack lack of proper accreditation is bringing the whole industry into disrepute !

Please start thinking (and sounding) like a businessman if you want to get into the business or running a brewery - at the moment you are sounding a little like a wide-eyed drunk !

 

[Greg.L]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter what kind of alcoholic beverage you produce (beer, cider, wine or spirits), you need to be licences to produce/sell and pay excise to the government.

For wine or cider you need a license to produce and sell, mainly controlled by local gvt in NSW, but you don't need an excise license. You don't even pay excise unless your turnover is more than a million dollars.
Seems a bit unfair on brewers but I'm not complaining.

 

[Greg.L]

If its got alcohol in it, the ATO want to know about it, regardless of what type of beverage it is.

And selling cider by the glass at farmers markets....are you serious, you really are ill-informed. If a publican can be fined $10k for serving drunks, imaging what the police will do when they see selling illegal cider without a licence at a market...., your going to need plenty of keg lube with those prison greens

You can sell by the glass on your farm, not sure about farmers markets. You do have to inform the police, buts that's a formality. At our local farmers markets they sell plenty of wine, plenty of tastings. The police aren't bothered. Also the local distiller sells there, so beer would be legal at a farmer's market. I said you need a license, never suggested otherwise. Remember these things vary by state, what is legal in NSW may not apply in other states. That excise thing is a federal thing, can't avoid that.

 

[bignath]

You can sell by the glass on your farm, not sure about farmers markets. You do have to inform the police, buts that's a formality. At our local farmers markets they sell plenty of wine, plenty of tastings. The police aren't bothered. Also the local distiller sells there, so beer would be legal at a farmer's market. I said you need a license, never suggested otherwise. Remember these things vary by state, what is legal in NSW may not apply in other states. That excise thing is a federal thing, can't avoid that.

I'm not saying you're wrong on this post above, as i've got no idea on the specifics of farmers markets and the like....

but, the overall vibe of your post suggest you're getting caught up with the whole "what you can get away with vs what you're legally allowed to do". Doesn't make it right (if in fact you are wrong on this, as i said i don't know...)

Either way, it sound's like dangerous advice to the general observer/reader/guests to this site. The experienced members should know better anyway.

 

[pmash]

Have a look at these 24 pages...
http://responsiblealcohol.vic.gov.au/wps/w...pdf?MOD=AJPERES

 

[Greg.L]

I'm not saying you're wrong on this post above, as i've got no idea on the specifics of farmers markets and the like....

but, the overall vibe of your post suggest you're getting caught up with the whole "what you can get away with vs what you're legally allowed to do". Doesn't make it right (if in fact you are wrong on this, as i said i don't know...)

Either way, it sound's like dangerous advice to the general observer/reader/guests to this site. The experienced members should know better anyway.

Hey, I already admitted I was wrong, ill informed. I didn't realise beer was so much harder than cider. But with cider, once you have your producer/wholesaler license, and you use your own fruit, you are very much unrestricted with selling the stuff. No tax, no bother. The tax office don't want to know, the state gvt don't want to bother. The hard part is finding the punters to buy the stuff. It may seem unfair to beer makers, and it is. Why should cider growers get such preferential treatment? I don't know.

 

[Greg.L]

Have a look at these 24 pages...
http://responsiblealcohol.vic.gov.au/wps/w...pdf?MOD=AJPERES

This whole discussion is about NSW, so VIC stuff isn't relevant here.

 

[DKS]

I don't know.

Says it all right there.
Daz

 

[dr K]

This site (as its name implies) is about Home Brewing.
Of course Home Brewers also drink commercial beer, may wish to comment on it and may wish to make a beer that tastes similar. Thats all fine.
Sadly some people belive what they read and dangerously report it, the urban myth crisis.
Simple, don't sell your beer and don't steal your kegs.
CUB/Lion-Nathan may factor in a certain amount of theft (tiny really) and consider the cost of recovery is just not worth it.
The ATO will not, and do not.
Forget your Men in Black stuff, the ATO have a charter to collect the tax that pays for for the benefits we enjoy living in Australia (did you really think the Mining Magnates did, well given some of the comments on this thread I can understand why some people may).
Despite (or perhaps because of) the rationalisation of tax and excise laws (note the Tax Office is the collector of excise) over the last 3 decades there are still some 39 different excise and tax charges relating to alcohol, many of which include beer, now whether or not we agree with these, thats the law. This is just on the Federal level, Bigfridge has already pointed out the complexities of of dealing with State and Local regulations.

K

 

[Wimmig]

A friend of mine recently called and asked about homebrew specific laws from OLGR (NSW). The below is the basics of it and assumes you do not have a company, ABN and reside in NSW. That is, a homebrewer. Though some laws are federal.

You can NOT sell your beer to anybody.
You can NOT profit in any way, shape or form.
You can NOT use the beer to barter with, or exchange for any goods or services.

You are free to consume, enjoy and share your beer providing it is given to those only above 18 years of age. This can occur in any setting, though is assumed does NOT occur on a venue with a liquor licence, or one registered to make profit or trade or benefit from the consumption of said beer.

There is no max of output production provided it is consumed in a private setting or one which would be seen as fitting with the existing requirments.

Go ahead and take all the kegs you like to parties, freinds houses etc. Nothing against it. Common sense applies.

 

[Innes]

You are free to consume, enjoy and share your beer providing it is given to those only above 18 years of age. This can occur in any setting, though is assumed does NOT occur on a venue with a liquor licence, or one registered to make profit or trade or benefit from the consumption of said beer.

Not too sure about this part. I've been to quite a number of brewshare nights at the Local Taphouse here in Syndey which is a licenced venue and drank not only my own, but other peoples homebrew. I was under the impression that as long as the home brew was not being sold, everything was above board.

I could not imagine that a licenced venue would put their licence and business at risk by hosting these events without following the regulations.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Getting back to the original OP....

If the club wanted to brew its own beer, then it would bascially only have to get a brewers licence, as they already have a retail licence, life will be a lot easier, as it would be classed as a BOP ( Brew On Premises ). They would have to submit to council things like disposal of wastes etc, but, assuming the club has a kitchen, then should be no probs. The main issue with council is that it must conform with safe food handling practices etc, basically a commercial kitchen

If you want to do it on a small scale, ask the council to set it up as a cottage industry, basically does not take up anymore space than a double garage

OLGR only really want the $5k for the license, which is cheap compared to a retail liquir licence..And as a Brewer, you can only sell to a retailer or wholsaler, definatly no cellar dor sales or tasting :angry:

ATO dont care about any of the above, but you need the brewers licence before they will give you permision to brew. The ATO are ONLY interested in what you brew and how much.

Now I have actually looked into this process at length, and discovered some interesting things with regards to the ATO.
In small breweries, they will accept hydrometer readings for %alc, but you must submit ALL your recipies to them, so they can work out a rough %alc, but, they do take into account mash and brew efficiencies, as long as you are consistant, they dont really care. You must also keep detailed records of frementable products, and do regular stock takes, as they will add these up against what you brew to see if you are diddling them. ALL fermenting vessels must be calibrated. then comes the issue of paying the excise, basically, excise MUST be paid before the beer is sold to a retail outlet ( ie leaves the brewery premoses ), you can sell to a wholesaler, but they must keep the beer in a licenced bond store untill the excise is paid. Excise is paid on the volume of alc in your brew...the lighter the beer, the less excise, this is why tap beer has gradually drop in %alc from 4.9 to 4.5%

I spoke to a person in the ATO's Alcohol Industry Group, and they where very helpfull, and when he explained the reasons and process, it wasnt that bad, you just need to keep acuarte records.

It is possible to brew and do it leagally,

Bellingen Brewery use 300 ltr vesells.. And they sell there beer in 18ltr corny kegs
http://www.bellobeer.com.au/brewery/


My Brewery never got of the ground, due to " **** happens", but..one day..

Oh... and the $50-100k costs just for licences fees, etc is crap, if you employs a solicitor and consultant, then be prepared to pay..I actaully got council DA approval and the cost was about $50, and as for the brewers licence, was going to be $5k, and I can submit it myself, its a simple procedure of filling out the form, getting approval from the local police , and satisfying the court. You dont even need and RSA in NSW. It is basically a formality

 

[bigfridge]

Not too sure about this part. I've been to quite a number of brewshare nights at the Local Taphouse here in Syndey which is a licenced venue and drank not only my own, but other peoples homebrew. I was under the impression that as long as the home brew was not being sold, everything was above board.

I could not imagine that a licenced venue would put their licence and business at risk by hosting these events without following the regulations.

Yes, Wimmig gave the game away when he used the word 'assumed' ie

This can occur in any setting, though is assumed does NOT occur on a venue with a liquor licence, or one registered to make profit or trade or benefit from the consumption of said beer.

Official, legal advice never assumes anything ! You just need to apply the common, everyday meaning to the words.

As I have posted above you need to have a producers license to make the beer and depending on where your brewery is, you can only sell your beer to other license holders (or to the public outside of the metropolitan areas). The ATO collects the excise each week from the licensed producers.

Your pubs are licensed to sell alcohol (just look at the sign over the door) - but nowhere does it specify where that alcohol has come from. Just think about BYO for a moment - the rules about if and what you can BYO is only a matter of the restraunt's policy - there is nothing in their license conditions that control it.

So the rules are very simple so I hope that everyone here can understand:

You are not allowed to sell alcohol without a license.

Licensed premises are the only places where alcohol can be bought.

But as long as you do not sell your HB, licensed premises are free to serve your beer and to even charge for it. There are plenty of examples where this happens all the time at places like the Brew Share nights, HB comps etc.

Easy if you just give it a bit of thought.

 

[bigfridge]

Getting back to the original OP....

If the club wanted to brew its own beer, then it would bascially only have to get a brewers licence, as they already have a retail licence, life will be a lot easier, as it would be classed as a BOP ( Brew On Premises ). They would have to submit to council things like disposal of wastes etc, but, assuming the club has a kitchen, then should be no probs. The main issue with council is that it must conform with safe food handling practices etc, basically a commercial kitchen

If you want to do it on a small scale, ask the council to set it up as a cottage industry, basically does not take up anymore space than a double garage

OLGR only really want the $5k for the license, which is cheap compared to a retail liquir licence..And as a Brewer, you can only sell to a retailer or wholsaler, definatly no cellar dor sales or tasting :angry:

ATO dont care about any of the above, but you need the brewers licence before they will give you permision to brew. The ATO are ONLY interested in what you brew and how much.

Now I have actually looked into this process at length, and discovered some interesting things with regards to the ATO.
In small breweries, they will accept hydrometer readings for %alc, but you must submit ALL your recipies to them, so they can work out a rough %alc, but, they do take into account mash and brew efficiencies, as long as you are consistant, they dont really care. You must also keep detailed records of frementable products, and do regular stock takes, as they will add these up against what you brew to see if you are diddling them. ALL fermenting vessels must be calibrated. then comes the issue of paying the excise, basically, excise MUST be paid before the beer is sold to a retail outlet ( ie leaves the brewery premoses ), you can sell to a wholesaler, but they must keep the beer in a licenced bond store untill the excise is paid. Excise is paid on the volume of alc in your brew...the lighter the beer, the less excise, this is why tap beer has gradually drop in %alc from 4.9 to 4.5%

I spoke to a person in the ATO's Alcohol Industry Group, and they where very helpfull, and when he explained the reasons and process, it wasnt that bad, you just need to keep acuarte records.

It is possible to brew and do it leagally,

Bellingen Brewery use 300 ltr vesells.. And they sell there beer in 18ltr corny kegs
http://www.bellobeer.com.au/brewery/


My Brewery never got of the ground, due to " **** happens", but..one day..

Oh... and the $50-100k costs just for licences fees, etc is crap, if you employs a solicitor and consultant, then be prepared to pay..I actaully got council DA approval and the cost was about $50, and as for the brewers licence, was going to be $5k, and I can submit it myself, its a simple procedure of filling out the form, getting approval from the local police , and satisfying the court. You dont even need and RSA in NSW. It is basically a formality

Mate, there is just so much wrong with your information that I wonder if you have read any of the previous posts !

But the last statement that you don't need an "RSA in NSW" proves the depth and quality of your information. If you look at the NSW OLGR Application form that I posted earlier today, you will see that page 3 asks you for details of your RSA certification. If you don't have one, you need to enter the date that you will complete it - it is easy to find this section on the form as it is right beside the words "applicant must complete RSA course before licence can be granted".

But as it is only a 'formality' (whatever that means) you probably don't really need to fill this part out as they don't really care about it.

 

[dr K]

Easy if you just give it a bit of thought.

BF
It is the last word that causes confusion
of course you have said what you meant, which is clear.
but if I thought that you thought and what I thought was unclear, then I think some cofusion may arise.
As an aside, for excise purposes they used to calculate the AB (W or V) by using two calibrated short planks, the closer they came to each other the more dense and thus was tax collected.

K

 

[manticle]

of course you have said what you meant, which is clear.
but if I thought that you thought and what I thought was unclear, then I think some cofusion may arise.

Lucky clear isn't spelled with a K.

Konfusion would otherwise easily arise.

 

[bigfridge]

but if I thought that you thought and what I thought was unclear, then I think some cofusion may arise.

DrK,

You are indeed correct, both on a theoretical, practical and even historical basis.

Thankfully there is a way out of this taxing situation - if there is anything that remains unclear they can always ask Ducatiboy stu.

After all he has 'almost' done it so knows what he is talking about - unlike me who gives such crap advice (particularly about "the $50-100k costs just for licences fees").

BF

 

[Phoney]

You are free to consume, enjoy and share your beer providing it is given to those only above 18 years of age.

In NSW (not sure about other states) you're allowed to give beer to kids if they're yours or under your command.


http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/community_iss...s_and_under_18s

(4) Supplying liquor to minors on other premises
A person must not supply liquor to a minor on any premises other than licensed premises unless the person is a parent or guardian of the minor.

It is a defence to a prosecution for an offence under subsection (4) if it is proved that the defendant was authorised to supply liquor to the minor by the parent or guardian of the minor.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Mate, there is just so much wrong with your information that I wonder if you have read any of the previous posts !

But the last statement that you don't need an "RSA in NSW" proves the depth and quality of your information. If you look at the NSW OLGR Application form that I posted earlier today, you will see that page 3 asks you for details of your RSA certification. If you don't have one, you need to enter the date that you will complete it - it is easy to find this section on the form as it is right beside the words "applicant must complete RSA course before licence can be granted".

But as it is only a 'formality' (whatever that means) you probably don't really need to fill this part out as they don't really care about it.

Please tell me what is wrong with my info.

The reason I stated that you dont need an RSA in NSW as a brewer stands correct. There have been several judgements made in court to state that as you are not selling as a retail product, you do not require an RSA, It is just a from, you can apply to the court for an exeption, based on the fact that you are only a producer, and under the law, a producer is not allowed to supply or sell at a retail level