Schneider Aventinus

[Thefatdoghead]

It is the best dark weizen going so how do you brew it?
It has a sour mash but what else?

Anyone got ideas?

 

[peteru]

Aventinus is very nice. I thought it was done as a dopplebock base and then went through the icebier process to concentrate the flavours. However, I have no idea how I came up with that, because I can't find any evidence that would support that. Maybe it was on the back of the label?

Aha - this is what I was thinking off, they give you the basis for a recipe.


Aventinus Eisbock

Unbelievably sensual
Magic and black soul: “Aventinus Eisbock” – mahogany-coloured, almost black Eisbock for sensual enjoyment – should best be enjoyed from a big wide glass. This Schneider speciality seduces from the first sip. The special freezing method provides it with a soft, elegant body. Yet, it is very powerful and intense with aromas: spicy plum, banana and clove with a hint of bitter almond and marzipan – a magical taste experience. It is very tempting as a digestif, as well as to crepes, dark chocolate, tiramisu or matured Parmesan cheese.


Hops
Hallertauer Tradition and Magnum
Malt
60 % wheat malt,
40 % barley malt
from the region of Kelheim
Fermentation
Bottle and keg fermentation
IBU
15
CO2
7 g/l
Alcohol
12,0 % vol. alc.
Orig. gravity
25,5 %

 

[Jack of all biers]

It is the best dark weizen going so how do you brew it?
It has a sour mash but what else?

Anyone got ideas?

No sour mash.

Schneider Aventinus recipe from Brew Classic European Beers at Home, p. 168, Protz & Wheeler, CAMRA books (this is the same book that Lez the Weizguy took the Schneider Weisse recipe posted in the recipe section of this forum)

For 25L @ OG 1077 (plato 18.5) based on a mash efficiency of 80%.

Wheat malt 5360 gm
Munich malt 1340 gm
Pilsner malt 1260 gm
Caramunich 970 gm

Stepped or Decoction mash schedule (Schneider brewery uses a double decoction mash)
50C - 20 minutes
65C - 60 minutes
76C - 10 minutes

Boil for 90 minutes (60 would also be fine)

(The below hop additions will need the weights recalculated for the Hallertau a/a that you can get [usually below 6%]).
Hallertau (7.5% a/a) 40 gm @ start of boil
Hallertau (7.5% a/a) 10 gm @ last 15 minutes of boil
Irish moss or whirlfloc in last 15 minutes - optional (I wouldn't bother for a weizen, but it is in the recipe)

Racking gravity: 1019 (4.2 plato)
ABV: 7.8%
IBU: 22
Colour: 43 EBC

EDIT - Simple hop calculation for a different a/a value is: New weight of hops = weight of specified hops x (a/a of specified hops / a/a of substitute hops)
or if your Hallertau is 6.1% then New weight of hops = 40 x (7.5 / 6.1) = 49 gm

Enjoy.

2nd EDIT - Oh and I forgot, but obviously use an appropriate yeast such as Wyeast 3068 or similar

 

[MHB]

From what I have heard they lean very heavily on CarraWheat for a lot of the colour and flavour.
M

 

[Jack of all biers]

Mark, you may well be right. I'd dare say that a big brewery will play with its recipes from time to time and when they find that they can get the same bang (flavour) for a cheaper buck they will change it. Not to say that just because Wheeler got a lot of info from Schneider re their methods that he got their recipe or reproduced it in his book. He was aiming to get the style of the beer in the recipes rather than exact clones. Also when Wheeler wrote his book (and later revised it for the international market) he used the malts that were available for the British HB market. A lot of his recipes don't have much in the way of specialty malts other than crystal, caramunich or carapils, with one reference to Roasted caramalt (which I take to be something like Carafaspecial I or II). I think most of the others weren't available back then to the HB market here in Australia either.

The OP (or anyone else who wants to give the recipe a go) could change out the Caramunich for Carawheat or change the content of the Munich for Carawheat, or play with it as you will. I'd still give the original recipe a go though as Wheeler has not led me astray to date (I'm struggling to brew them all and have had the book for 10 years).

 

[Thefatdoghead]

I had the eis version in Montville at the germain restaurant. It was so amazing to drink a beer like that. So strong and malty but finishes so dry. What an amazing beer.

Aventinus is very nice. I thought it was done as a dopplebock base and then went through the icebier process to concentrate the flavours. However, I have no idea how I came up with that, because I can't find any evidence that would support that. Maybe it was on the back of the label?

Aha - this is what I was thinking off, they give you the basis for a recipe.

Aventinus Eisbock

Unbelievably sensual
Magic and black soul: “Aventinus Eisbock” – mahogany-coloured, almost black Eisbock for sensual enjoyment – should best be enjoyed from a big wide glass. This Schneider speciality seduces from the first sip. The special freezing method provides it with a soft, elegant body. Yet, it is very powerful and intense with aromas: spicy plum, banana and clove with a hint of bitter almond and marzipan – a magical taste experience. It is very tempting as a digestif, as well as to crepes, dark chocolate, tiramisu or matured Parmesan cheese.

Hops
Hallertauer Tradition and Magnum
Malt
60 % wheat malt,
40 % barley malt
from the region of Kelheim
Fermentation
Bottle and keg fermentation
IBU
15
CO2
7 g/l
Alcohol
12,0 % vol. alc.
Orig. gravity
25,5 %

No sour mash.

Schneider Aventinus recipe from Brew Classic European Beers at Home, p. 168, Protz & Wheeler, CAMRA books (this is the same book that Lez the Weizguy took the Schneider Weisse recipe posted in the recipe section of this forum)

For 25L @ OG 1077 (plato 18.5) based on a mash efficiency of 80%.

Wheat malt 5360 gm
Munich malt 1340 gm
Pilsner malt 1260 gm
Caramunich 970 gm

Stepped or Decoction mash schedule (Schneider brewery uses a double decoction mash)
50C - 20 minutes
65C - 60 minutes
76C - 10 minutes

Boil for 90 minutes (60 would also be fine)

(The below hop additions will need the weights recalculated for the Hallertau a/a that you can get [usually below 6%]).
Hallertau (7.5% a/a) 40 gm @ start of boil
Hallertau (7.5% a/a) 10 gm @ last 15 minutes of boil
Irish moss or whirlfloc in last 15 minutes - optional (I wouldn't bother for a weizen, but it is in the recipe)

Racking gravity: 1019 (4.2 plato)
ABV: 7.8%
IBU: 22
Colour: 43 EBC

EDIT - Simple hop calculation for a different a/a value is: New weight of hops = weight of specified hops x (a/a of specified hops / a/a of substitute hops)
or if your Hallertau is 6.1% then New weight of hops = 40 x (7.5 / 6.1) = 49 gm

Enjoy.

Man im sure I read in "wheat" that this beer was sour mashed. I lent the book so dont have it but it even tastes slightly sour.

 

[Jack of all biers]

Hey give it a crack. It's home brewing after all. You can make the beer any way you want and that's half the beauty of it. I must admit that it's been 12 or more years since I had one of the commercial versions, but I don't remember sour. Tart yes, but my memory of taste is not that explainable really, so I say if you want to sour mash. Do it and let us know how it turns out. It might be a good twist.

 

[MHB]

Tart, is usually used to describe wheat flavour. I suppose some people could get the idea that there was more to it than there is - a lot of German brewers do a sour mash to adjust pH, as they cant add acid under the Reinheitsgebot.

Jack I'm another big fan of Wheelers recipes and have tried brewing this one, I suspect it was the least successful of his recipes, it wasn't a bad beer just missed the mark as a clone. Switching out the Cara and a fair fraction of the wheat malt was a lot closer.
The other point is that the recipe in Wheelers book is for the Aventinus which the OP is asking about. The Ice version Aventinus Eisbok pictured in a couple of the replies above is a different beer or possibly the same beer with some of the water frozen out of it (and damn fine it is too) but we are talking 7.8% rather than 12% alcohol. Or an OG of 1.077 and 1.102 respectively so quite lot of difference.
Mark

 

[Jack of all biers]

Sorry for the extra post, but for some reason the edit function wouldn't let me save.

I just checked my "Beer" by Michael Jackson and he describes the Aventinus as being 'Dark chestnut colour; banana and cocoa aromas; spicy fruitiness, almost refreshing owing to high carbonation, though the warmth in the mouthfell is a reminder of its alcoholic strength. No apparent bitterness.' Jackson also lists it as having 8.2% ABV so the recipe has changed since 1995-2001 when Wheeler wrote and updated his book. Maybe add some CaraWeizen to bring up the ABV perhaps.

Wheeler's (or really Protz's) blurb for Aventinus is 'Bavarian weizen doppelbock. Rich, dark sultana fruit aroma, dark fruit and spices in the mouth, long, complex finish with dark malt, fruit and gentle hops.'

No mention from either of sourness or sour notes.

EDIT - now it lets me edit. h34r: Mark that's disappointing to hear. I've not tried this one yet, but do remember the beer with fondness (lived in Munich for 3 years.)

 

[Weizguy]

Tart is not a relevant descriptor for Wheat beer and has since been removed from all viable and valid descriptions (e.g. BJCP 2015).
Seems to me that some tosser (sorry, Michael J., you're wrong on this one) once thought they had a tartness (more likely a dryness, due to phenolics) and a lot of people who respected his writing copied this character into their own descriptions as HE could taste it and so he MUST be right.
Glad to see times are changing, and style guides are being amended to correct these errors. I listened to a few Brewing Network "Brewing with Style" episodes about wheat beers and had to agree wholeheartedly with Jamil (who also can be a right tosser and unduly and incorrectly opinionated) when he disagreed with the descriptor of "tart" for weizen and other wheat styles.
Seth

 

[Adr_0]

From Stan H's book, there are a few bits of information:
60% wheat (page 84)
"somewhat more than 1% chocolate"
pils to balance
OG 1076
IBU 16 with Halletau Tradition and Magnum

10min at 35°C
10min at 45°C (could probably skip this)
10min or less at 50°C
64°C for 5min then draw the first decoction --> 67°C for 10min, 70°C for 20min, then 95°C for 5min, then added back
75°C mash out

I would guess that the colour is about 40EBC though I'm probably way off on this... actually on page 188 it says 45EBC so there you go. With Carafa Special 1 that is around 4%. The chocolate is presumably Carafa Special, though you could use choc wheat instead.

I made an wheat doppelbock a little while ago for the Qld swap which was 60% wheat, but something like 42-43% dark wheat and 17% pale. That could be an option if you want a more "munichy" wheat doppelbock.

 

[Adr_0]

Did you end up trying a recipe?