Same recipe, bad head retention this time.

[MrChoat]

Hi all.

Just wondering what could cause bad head retention.

I've made this extract brew 5 times, the third rendition is kegged and tapped now. Ive always force carbed to 140kpa, in the same fridge at the same temp, followed the same recipe but have been playing around with more/other hops.

Also I've changed from Coopers cans to black rock since there's a little more in them.

Final gravity this time was 1012. Last time it was 1008. Original gravity within a couple of points starting around 1042.

I top to 24l with the 1.7kg cans.

I was doing 23l with the 1.5kg cans, I figured I'd get a 6 pack of stubbies to hide away as well as a keg if there was more, which was the reason I switched.

The glass is fresh off the dish rack. Washed in warm water and rinsed well. There's stuff all lacing too.

I just can't figure out what's so different.. Maybe the cans weren't so fresh, I remember seeing the use by on one was November.. I can't remember if that's in this brew or another.

Any ideas on what could have done it?

 

[luggy]

Were you eating anything greasy at the time

 

[manticle]

So same recipe but different ingredients? Three main things are proteins, hop oils and dextrins.
What's the kilo part of the kk made from?

 

[manticle]

In fact what's the whole recipe?
You're sure of your carbing method too?(although flat beer made right has great head retention in my experience).

 

[MrChoat]

Were you eating anything greasy at the time

Nope, clean glass, not eating anything.

So same recipe but different ingredients? Three main things are proteins, hop oils and dextrins.
What's the kilo part of the kk made from?

In fact what's the whole recipe?
You're sure of your carbing method too?(although flat beer made right has great head retention in my experience).

Its Earle's pacific ale recipe. Basically it goes like this. A tin of wheat extract and a tin of light extract, with about 500g of the light extract boiled in 6l of water for 20 min while making the hop additions. Then the rest of the tins get added to the fermenter, join the cooled wort and get a stir, then its topped to 23 or 25 depending on the weight of the can.

I'm force carbing the keg to around 130kpa to 140kpa, which I found is a good level of carbonation for that beer the last couple of kegs. I use the method outlined here, I blast 300kpa down the out tube for two minutes while rocking, turn off the gas, keep rocking it until the low pressure gauge stops. Its usually a little under carbed at that point so I give it a few more ten second bursts of gas until the needle lands where I want it to. Then it sits in the fridge for a week disconnected from the lines and then gets given serving pressure at around 130kpa.

I set my serving pressure high as I have flow control taps, about 2.5m of beer line and I turn the gas off in between pours. I found it works better higher around the pressure the beer is carbed at rather than lower at about 80kpa.

 

[verysupple]

As manticle pointed out, if it's not the same ingredients then it's not the same recipe. The fact that FG is different is a pretty good indicator that the extracts have different make ups (assuming everything else was the same). It could be that the new extract just doesn't give good head retention.

 

[MrChoat]

Thanks guys for all the input, it helps me see things from a different perspective. Looks like I'll stick with the coopers tins in the future as they've given me the best results so far, and if a recipe is good, stick to it.

Cheers

 

[Tricky Dicky]

I know this is an old thread ( I'm a newbie brewer) but I'm just on my second brew of an English bitter extract only. I don't like bitter over carbonated so I've found I like it around 70 kpa and also set at the same level for serving. I have a beer line approx a meter long (4mm tube) with a Pluto gun. The speed of the poor is about right, but the head disappears after a few minutes. I've noticed that if it's over carbonated although I get too much froth the head is thick and lasts to the bottom of the glass. Is there any way to improve the head retention here and keep the carbonation level at 70 kpa, would shortening the beer line help?

 

[MHB]

Carbonation is a function of Temperature and Pressure, without knowing both we know nothing.
Read up on fermentation and carbonation in Braukaiser, have a look at the carbonation table, and note the appropriate fix/style guides at the foot of the table.
Mark

 

[Tricky Dicky]

Carbonation is a function of Temperature and Pressure, without knowing both we know nothing.
Read up on fermentation and carbonation in Braukaiser, have a look at the carbonation table, and note the appropriate fix/style guides at the foot of the table.
Mark

I have looked up something similar and that's how I got to the beer line length, carbonation level and the temp I like (12c) as a starting point. I guess what I'm asking is, given I have those variables where I want them i.e carbonation level and temperature and the pouring rate rate looks ok, if I shorten the beer line it will increase the rate of flow, correct? if so will that aid in creating a slight frothier head and possibly head retention?

 

[MHB]

Head formation and retention are related but not the same. Looks like you are smack in the middle of the carbonation range for British ale, so yes a shorter line would give a faster pour and probably more head at the start (formation).
That wont guarantee that the head persists, several big factors effect retention.
Replenishment - more head forming during the time the beer is in the glass (nucleating glasses help with this - and flatten the beer as does more dissolved CO2 (higher pressure, lower temperature).
Higher IBU's - Iso Alpha is a very powerful head builder/retainer (more hops in general help)
Protein - more of the right sort of protein helps head retention (protein rests, malt choices (some Wheat), boil time/quality)
Maturity - time in cask helps (up to a point)
Clean Glassware - glasses that are free of oil and detergent, wet the inside of the glass (a fine spray or condensed steam is best) sprinkle salt into the glass, if the salt sticks the glass isn't clean.
Zinc - small amounts of Zn will improve head retention, Warning we are talking very small amounts of Zn added post fermentation make dam sure you know how to work out how much you are adding or you will stuff your beer,

I did a Tech Talk at my Club a while ago, here is a copy of my notes, hope you find them helpful.
Mark

Sorry - Where the salt DOESN'T stick isn't clean

 

[hoppy2B]

A lower attenuating yeast strain might help with head retention. As Tricky Dicky is only on his second brew, an all extract, maybe something simple like steeping a little light crystal or some other spec grain will be the way to go without changing anything else.

 

[Tricky Dicky]

A lower attenuating yeast strain might help with head retention. As Tricky Dicky is only on his second brew, an all extract, maybe something simple like steeping a little light crystal or some other spec grain will be the way to go without changing anything else.

What type of specialty grains might do this?

 

[Black Devil Dog]

Head formation and retention are related but not the same. Looks like you are smack in the middle of the carbonation range for British ale, so yes a shorter line would give a faster pour and probably more head at the start (formation).
That wont guarantee that the head persists, several big factors effect retention.
Replenishment - more head forming during the time the beer is in the glass (nucleating glasses help with this - and flatten the beer as does more dissolved CO2 (higher pressure, lower temperature).
Higher IBU's - Iso Alpha is a very powerful head builder/retainer (more hops in general help)
Protein - more of the right sort of protein helps head retention (protein rests, malt choices (some Wheat), boil time/quality)
Maturity - time in cask helps (up to a point)
Clean Glassware - glasses that are free of oil and detergent, wet the inside of the glass (a fine spray or condensed steam is best) sprinkle salt into the glass, if the salt sticks the glass isn't clean.
Zinc - small amounts of Zn will improve head retention, Warning we are talking very small amounts of Zn added post fermentation make dam sure you know how to work out how much you are adding or you will stuff your beer,

I did a Tech Talk at my Club a while ago, here is a copy of my notes, hope you find them helpful.
Mark

Sorry - Where the salt DOESN'T stick isn't clean

I just want to clarify something in your notes MHB.

"There are also head negative components in the grist, mostly Lipids. Lipids are a bit of a catch all name given to fats and oils; they act much like the oily addition to the glass we looked at earlier. A normal all grain grist should have plenty of head building ingredients to form good dead on most beers, if your grist is supplemented with a lot of sugar (0% protein) or contains a lot of unmalted adjunct, we have every reason to expect good head on the beer. Unless we apply poor processes that either reduces head positive ingredients or increase head negative components."


Is that right? I would have thought a lot of sugar, ie cane sugar, would be detrimental to forming a good head.

 

[hoppy2B]

What type of specialty grains might do this?

Most spec grains will probably give you extra body and better head retention. Even just a bit of ale malt mashed at the right temp would probably help. The commonest things to try would be anything with ''cara'' or ''crystal'' in the name.

50-100 grams of dark crystal steeped at 70 degrees for 20-30 minutes would be a good place to start experimenting.

 

[Jack of all biers]

What type of specialty grains might do this?

Carapils is/was also called Carafoam. There is a hint there .

Just pick one that has the colour and/or flavour profile you want to suit your beer and don't over do it. Hoppy2B's advice on 50-100gm is a good starting point for a 23L batch and if you like sweeter beers, 200-250gm maybe your go, but don't throw in 500gm as it will likely be too much for you/and or others.

 

[hoppy2B]

I went the dark crystal because you need less of it so it is easier to use, and I thought dark crystal was more typical of an ESB recipe.

 

[MHB]

I just want to clarify something in your notes MHB.

"There are also head negative components in the grist, mostly Lipids. Lipids are a bit of a catch all name given to fats and oils; they act much like the oily addition to the glass we looked at earlier. A normal all grain grist should have plenty of head building ingredients to form good dead on most beers, if your grist is supplemented with a lot of sugar (0% protein) or contains a lot of unmalted adjunct, we have every reason to expect good head on the beer. Unless we apply poor processes that either reduces head positive ingredients or increase head negative components."


Is that right? I would have thought a lot of sugar, ie cane sugar, would be detrimental to forming a good head.

Probably should read Unless your grist... could have fixed the typo dead/head at the same time.

So yes you are right, just remember these were just the talking point notes to try and keep the talk on track, rather than written notes designed to hand out, probably should sit down and proof it properly.
Cheers Mark

 

[Tricky Dicky]

Most spec grains will probably give you extra body and better head retention. Even just a bit of ale malt mashed at the right temp would probably help. The commonest things to try would be anything with ''cara'' or ''crystal'' in the name.

50-100 grams of dark crystal steeped at 70 degrees for 20-30 minutes would be a good place to start experimenting.

And how much water would you steep in?

 

[hoppy2B]

And how much water would you steep in?

A couple of litres would be enough for that amount of grain. You could wrap the grain in something like a chux cleaning cloth or similar. They sell grain and hop bags fairly cheaply, for the purpose of steeping grain and hops. It depends on your process as to how much water you want to use. I like to boil up the whole volume of water to prevent the possibility of infection.

From there it is quite easy to add 500 grams of base malt and get straight into a partial mash. Before you know it you will be wanting to start on an all grain BIAB. Any amount of grain steeped with your extract brew should give you improvement. Just don't go overboard with the amount of dark crystal grain to start with.

Cheers.