Same Priming Malt Quantity Producing Different Carbonation

[roller997]

I have been producing varying beers for some time.
My preferred styles are dark ales and hefeweizen. After sticking to a trusty old spreadsheet for some time, I purchased and starting using Beersmith to calculate the priming malt I should use for my bulk priming.

With a 46 liter conical fermenter I tend to work on anything from 42-44 liters of finished beer.
For the brews I have been priming with DME which is dissolved in 1.5-2 liters of water which is boiled for 15-20 mins.

The last couple (pale ale and dark ale) I have used 330 grams and 380 grams of DME respectively. Both of these were very much over the top in terms of carbonation. They foamed like hell if you poured them at a standard speed and with a few the beer was not contained in the bottle when I uncapped it. The fatal flaw I made with Beersmith was not to adjust the Beer temperature to establish the preferred carbonation at drinking temperature. I had left it at 15 degrees which produces a very different requirement in terms of DME content to achieve the desired carbonation volumes

Anyhow, while this mistake was a plain silly one which is easily explained, I had my best dark ale yet that I made only 9 months ago with identical beer volumes (well within 1-2 liters I suspect) and I used 380 grams of DME. The carbonation was perfect and I didn't have any issues with foaming or the beer feeling anywhere near as carbonated as the other two I described above. The difference between this one and the ones above was that I kegged 1/2 of the brew and bottled the rest. Bulk priming was used for both bottles and kegs.

I recently made a wheat beer which had 315 grams of DME and that was almost flat. I ended up adding some more DME (close to 80 grams) in boiling water to each bottle to "supercharge" the carbonation and it still didn't produce enough carbonation. Oveall, 315 grams should have been quite a lot of carbonation but it didn't appear to do much. There were some bubbles, but not anywhere near as my past wheat beers were and not anywhere near as much as the best effort dark ale outlined above.

For all the beers above, the brews fermented really well, identical mashing and sparging regimes were followed and I can't explain it.

I did have a very fast fermentation with the wheat beer which was flat and it was finished in about a week (temps were a bit high in Melbourne early Feb and aircon didn't get turned on early enough). I would have thought that this would enhance the livelyness of the yeast moreso than stifel it. The dark ale which was excellent had reasonably slow fermentation and was left for almost 3 weeks in the fermenter.

Could this be a yeast issue with the different beers. I would prefer to stick with lower DME volumes but how do I tell if the bulk priming will have the desired carbonation volume?

Any suggestions / help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Roland

 

[kabooby]

I havn't used DME before, I always use sugar.

The main things to look out for would be
- Make sure fermentation is completely finished
- Temperature of the wort
- Sugar needs to be stirred in well

Try using sugar for a few batches and see if you get more consistant results.

Kabooby :icon_cheers:

 

[roller997]

I havn't used DME before, I always use sugar.

The main things to look out for would be
- Make sure fermentation is completely finished
- Temperature of the wort
- Sugar needs to be stirred in well

Try using sugar for a few batches and see if you get more consistant results.

Kabooby :icon_cheers:

Thanks for the response - I will give it a try.
Sorry, I forgot to mention that the final gravity was pretty much at the low point for all fermentations and I am quite certain it was completed. I think the beer that had the least carbonation was the wheat beer with a FG of 1.010. There could have been a bit left with the dark ale as that did have a FG of 1.013, however with the recipe it was anticipated to have an FG of 1.015 given the Wyeast I was using.
I have just added 330 grams to my latest wheat creation so I will see how that goes.

Cheers.

 

[katzke]

I was a purest and primed with DME for a while. Got the same results and gave up. The problem with DME is it is not reliable from batch to batch as to its fermetability. So you get inconsistent results. Kind of like you do when you brew, some brews finish higher then others.

I assume you are weighing the DME and not measuring it.

One thing that may help is be consistent and do a short boil to make sure you kill any bugs in the DME. Then test the bottles and when they seem right chill them and store them cold to slow the process of any extra sugar conversion.

Or you could just switch to sugar as it really does not make any difference if you do not know.

 

[kabooby]

Thanks for the response - I will give it a try.
Sorry, I forgot to mention that the final gravity was pretty much at the low point for all fermentations and I am quite certain it was completed. I think the beer that had the least carbonation was the wheat beer with a FG of 1.010. There could have been a bit left with the dark ale as that did have a FG of 1.013, however with the recipe it was anticipated to have an FG of 1.015 given the Wyeast I was using.
I have just added 330 grams to my latest wheat creation so I will see how that goes.

Cheers.

Attenuation range of the yeast is not a good measure to determine your FG. So many things can influence this. Always wait till you think your beer is finished than take a gravity reading. Take a gravity reading the following day and if its the same, leave it for a few more days.

Kabooby

 

[roller997]

I was a purest and primed with DME for a while. Got the same results and gave up. The problem with DME is it is not reliable from batch to batch as to its fermetability. So you get inconsistent results. Kind of like you do when you brew, some brews finish higher then others.

I assume you are weighing the DME and not measuring it.

One thing that may help is be consistent and do a short boil to make sure you kill any bugs in the DME. Then test the bottles and when they seem right chill them and store them cold to slow the process of any extra sugar conversion.

Or you could just switch to sugar as it really does not make any difference if you do not know.

Thanks for that - Yes, I am weighing the DME and I do boil it for about 15-20 minutes quite rigorously so I don't think I am risking any bugs creeping in.
I might have to make the switch as this variance in carbonation is driving me mad.
I thought it might be the yeast having completely settled out and too little yeast being left to finish the job but then I would have expected some sweet nuiance in the low carbonated beer.
I had hoped that DME would be about as close to consistent as you could get since it should not vary much if you keep it dry and at reasonable temperatures. I know purists shy away from even using DME in their brew where they tip out the liquid from the yeast starter to minimize the "contermination". Mind you, using previous wort for carbonation is a bit extreme and I can certainly appreciate a lot of variance creeping in so I didn't even want to go down that path.

What sugar are you using?

 

[roller997]

Attenuation range of the yeast is not a good measure to determine your FG. So many things can influence this. Always wait till you think your beer is finished than take a gravity reading. Take a gravity reading the following day and if its the same, leave it for a few more days.

Kabooby

Kabooby,
You are right. I do usually wait for a bit more than 1 week and monitor the FG as I have a conical fermenter which makes tapping off very easy. I don't ever bottle without at least 3 gravity readings with all 3 of them, one day apart each not varying. I have a CUB hydrometer so it is a bit easier to read than the standard "value" models so I think the brews were all finished fermenting.
By the sounds of it, Katzke experienced something similar so I might just have to switch to sugar instead of the malt which is a bit annoying. I had hoped that using a very accurate scale +-5 grams and using about the same fermented beer volume each time should produce results that are proportional to the DME I use.

Ah well, back to basics - In this case sugar...

Regards

Roller997

 

[Sammus]

Something else to think about - though not likely if you are using a conical.

Sometimes the yeasts I use (namely wy1968) require constant rousing to get down the last few points. All the swirling will release a significant amount of CO2, and so the solution probably wont be saturated with CO2 like the calculators assume (thats what the temperature input is for). Could it be that a significant amount of CO2 had come out of the beer before priming for the ones that turned out ok?

 

[katzke]

Something else to think about - though not likely if you are using a conical.

Sometimes the yeasts I use (namely wy1968) require constant rousing to get down the last few points. All the swirling will release a significant amount of CO2, and so the solution probably wont be saturated with CO2 like the calculators assume (thats what the temperature input is for). Could it be that a significant amount of CO2 had come out of the beer before priming for the ones that turned out ok?

Was wondering if the conical had anything to do with it. Dont recall ever reading anything about it but most people with conicals keg.

I have started kegging but was using corn sugar from the brew shop. I did get some good beers with dry malt but also had some problems.

It has been some time and I did not reread the thread. It is important to compare the same brew, same brewing conditions, and same yeast. I do not remember if you were doing that or brewing like I do and making several different styles. It could also be a capping problem or even a conditioning problem.

I think I would try searching for other people that use a conical and bottle. I know I got sediment in the transfer even when I was very careful. Just what happens when you brew in carboys or buckets.

 

[Screwtop]

Roland,

Did you use a priming calculator each time to determine the amount of DME required??

Screwy

 

[roller997]

Was wondering if the conical had anything to do with it. Don't recall ever reading anything about it but most people with conicals keg.

I have started kegging but was using corn sugar from the brew shop. I did get some good beers with dry malt but also had some problems.

It has been some time and I did not reread the thread. It is important to compare the same brew, same brewing conditions, and same yeast. I do not remember if you were doing that or brewing like I do and making several different styles. It could also be a capping problem or even a conditioning problem.

I think I would try searching for other people that use a conical and bottle. I know I got sediment in the transfer even when I was very careful. Just what happens when you brew in carboys or buckets.

Your problems with DME - Were they carbonation variations similar to what I am experiencing?

I wouldn't have thought that the conical fermenter would have anything to do with it, unless of course all of the yeast settles out completely. Even if that was the case, I do stir the finished beer slightly it when adding the bulk primer to ensure the malt is dispersed throughout the whole beer and I make a note not to be too rigorous to minimize oxygen contacting the beer.

Yes, I do brew different styles, however beyond the initial mistake on earlier brews of using 15 degrees as the target temperatoure for a CO2 volume of 2.7 (wheat beers) I have been very constant and I am comparing the suggested and used weight of the malt for the last 4-5 brews. I would have anticipated that once the initial fermentation was completed, adding an identical amount of malt should yield very closely matched CO2 levels. Yet I used more malt in a recent wheat beer which was brewed a few weeks before a dark ale and the results were significantly different where I even decided to re-cap the dark ale to release some pressure and it was still "boystrous".
The wheat beer on the other hand didn't form a head and certainly appeared somewhat flat. In this case, I uncapped and added a sterilized malt solution to each bottle which made marginal to no difference, yet I couldn't taste additional sweetness so I assumed that it had fermented but possible only as much as the lost CO2 when I opened the bottles for a few seconds each.

I do also keg and I had a similar experience with kegging so it is definately something that is either related to the yeast (which seems very health in the primary fermentation) or the DME since different containers are used.

I still get sediment, even if I dump 4-5 liters of sludge and semi good beer out the bottom of the conical. I would assume this is generated during the carbonation. It isn't anywhere near as much as I used to get when brewing in the glass carboys.

I have just bottled a wheat beer and primed it a touch more than the dark ale so I will keep an eye on it. My preference was to stick with DME, however since I already use all grain for the brew, a bit of sugar won't hurt. The bottling happend Tuesday 24/6 so this weekend I will do the first "analysis" to see if we have a good carbonation start.

Thanks

Roller997

 

[roller997]

Roland,

Did you use a priming calculator each time to determine the amount of DME required??

Screwy

Yes I did use Beersmith every time to establish the DME amount I should be using. The initial mistakes I made were related to using 15 degrees as the target temperature. For the last few brews, this was adjusted to 5 degrees which requires less DME. I would have expected this to under carbonate all beers if that was the only issue.

Thanks

Roller997

 

[roller997]

Something else to think about - though not likely if you are using a conical.

Sometimes the yeasts I use (namely wy1968) require constant rousing to get down the last few points. All the swirling will release a significant amount of CO2, and so the solution probably wont be saturated with CO2 like the calculators assume (thats what the temperature input is for). Could it be that a significant amount of CO2 had come out of the beer before priming for the ones that turned out ok?

That is an interesting point. I generally only stir when the bulk primer gets added but perhaps the rigor is different. Also, the yeasts I use might not fully ferment if I don't currently stir them so you might be onto something.

I haven't used WY1968, however I have used 1187, 3068, 3056 and 3333 in the past. The first two are the yeasts I use almost exclusively now.

Thanks

Roller997

 

[ianh]

Yes I did use Beersmith every time to establish the DME amount I should be using. The initial mistakes I made were related to using 15 degrees as the target temperature. For the last few brews, this was adjusted to 5 degrees which requires less DME. I would have expected this to under carbonate all beers if that was the only issue.

Thanks

Roller997

The Temperature used in the calculation should be the highest temp achieved (for more than 1-2 hours) at the end of fermentation, this determines the amount of CO2 dissolved in the green beer.

If the max was say 20C and 42 litres of beer adding 340 g Malt extract gives 2.3 volumes
If the max was say 15C and 42 litres of beer adding 328 g Malt extract gives 2.4 volumes

So as you say there must be some other issue.

 

[roller997]

The Temperature used in the calculation should be the highest temp achieved (for more than 1-2 hours) at the end of fermentation, this determines the amount of CO2 dissolved in the green beer.

If the max was say 20C and 42 litres of beer adding 340 g Malt extract gives 2.3 volumes
If the max was say 15C and 42 litres of beer adding 328 g Malt extract gives 2.4 volumes

So as you say there must be some other issue.

Ianh
It appears that you have hit the nail on the head. Thanks for that. I will observe the temperature more from hereon in.
I was making the incorrect assumption that the temperature was the temperature the beer gets consumed at and that the CO volume related to the pressure so that would explain some variances if the beer was primed after different tempertures.
Mind you, the wheat beer and the dark ale were both primed in January, within 2 weeks of each other and I used an aircon to keep the ambient temperature at 22 degrees as it was a warm summer. The wheat beer had 15% less DME than the dark ale but the carbonation was substantially different, not just a little bit and that was what really threw me. I don't have statistics about the maximum temperature at the end of the fermentation for the other brews, so that would explain past variances as well.

Thanks for that.

Roller997

 

[buttersd70]

another thing to consider is that the fermentability of dme (which is produced via mashing) varies considerably from manufacturer to manufacturer....

 

[smollocks]

The Temperature used in the calculation should be the highest temp achieved (for more than 1-2 hours) at the end of fermentation, this determines the amount of CO2 dissolved in the green beer.

For those without proper temperature control, it can be hard to know the maximum temperature since the end of fermentation. In that case, do others agree you'd get more consistent results by allowing it to come to room temperature and using that temp in the priming calculation?

 

[buttersd70]

For those without proper temperature control, it can be hard to know the maximum temperature since the end of fermentation. In that case, do others agree you'd get more consistent results by allowing it to come to room temperature and using that temp in the priming calculation?

assuming that room temperature is warmer than what you were fermenting at; then yes. Some (experienced brewers, who do have good temp control) do, in fact do this. Others (such as myself) keep a closer eye on what's happening.

 

[Screwtop]

I do stir the finished beer slightly it when adding the bulk primer to ensure the malt is dispersed throughout the whole beer and I make a note not to be too rigorous to minimize oxygen contacting the beer.

Roller, do you add dry DME for bulk priming? Any priming sugar should be diluted a little and pasteurised and allowed to cool prior to adding in a liquid, a gentle stir is all thats required then.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[Renegade]

I was a purest

You rocked :beerbang:

and gave up.

Dude, you used to be cool.