Saltwater Ice

[felten]

Eisbock it is then, without the salt

You could always brew an eisgose

 

[Greg.L]

I know that the gulf stream in the north atlantic is caused when seawater in the arctic freezes and becomes fresh. This makes the remaining unfrozen water more salty and dense so it sinks and moves south.

 

[unrealeous]

Which, according to the lever rule on the phase diagram would give him about 5% ice, and 95% salt solution (unfrozen).

This is really the crux of the argument. I can't find anything to verify your percentages. A 95% salt solution would still be sloshing around and appear unfrozen - when at -14 degrees it solidifies.

 

[pimpsqueak]

Heh... I love the way a thread grows legs at this place.

Pimp, SB is right, you'll get no benefit from doing this, in fact, it will be less efficient than just freezing water. Think about ice on a road. It lays there frozen until along comes ranger Bob and chucks some salt on it. The ice melts and the traffic flows again even though the ambient temp hasn't changed. Why? Because the salt has decreased the melting point of the ice. It's kinda the reverse of what you're after.

Me too. I didn't mean to create a monster!

One of the reasons I started down this road is because of this.. http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...amp;hl=beginner

Since I'm over the halfway mark, even though it's looking like the odds are against me, I am going to see it through and post the results regardless.
There's been some great input though. I had never heard of Gose before and I still have no idea what "enthalpy of fusion" really means.
Learnin'; it's fcuking great.

 

[Strange Brew]

This is really the crux of the argument. I can't find anything to verify your percentages. A 95% salt solution would still be sloshing around and appear unfrozen - when at -14 degrees it solidifies.

Unlike pure substances, binary systems do not freeze at a single temperature, rather, they freeze over a range. The first solid starts to form at -14degC (this is called the liquidus), the last solid to form is at 21degC (this is called the solidus). Between the solvus and the liquidus there is a mixture of solid and liquid. The volume fraction of solid and liquid on a phase diagram can be calculated using the lever rule. Applyin the lever rule to the conditions in the origional post would give about 5% volume fraction solid (pure water) and 95% volume fraction liquid (salt solution). At 14degC the salt starts to leave the water from the solid fraction as it freezes (segregates) and makes the remianing liquid solution a higher concentration. This drops the freezing point of the reminain solution until you get to 21degC at which point you are left with pure ice and pure salt unmixed.

I don't care to spend ages searching the internet to find references when I have been studying this phenominon at univeristy for 7+ years. I can recommend some text books on thermodynamics of phase equalibria if you have access to a good library and are interested.

 

[QldKev]

What ever you do, if you make salt ice blocks don't add them into the beer! B)

QldKev

 

[DanRayner]

I had never heard of Gose before

Weird-ass sour beer from east germany. One of the few beer styles I have never tried but I'm pretty keen - it's so rare and difficult to get outside of east Germany that the BJCP doesn't include it in it's categories.

EDIT: what I mean by all this is: it's so rare and weird that I wouldn't worry too much about whether you've ever heard of it, it's unlikely that you'll be caught out in conversation when you admit you've never heard of it

 

[unrealeous]

...at univeristy for 7+ years.

Repeating all those science subjects you failed no doubt

Alright - you may be right about those percentages. I shall admit defeat and walk away with my tail between my legs. When my brewing freezer is free - I'm going to make an 18% salt solution and set the temp to -14.6C and see what happens.

 

[pimpsqueak]

Repeating all those science subjects you failed no doubt

Alright - you may be right about those percentages. I shall admit defeat and walk away with my tail between my legs. When my brewing freezer is free - I'm going to make an 18% salt solution and set the temp to -14.6C and see what happens.

Awesome, welcome to Club -14.6. Come on in, the water's fine solid.

So, I'm going to go right ahead and make the leap to the next logical question... Is the most effective ice (in this scenario at least) made out of distilled water? I don't know if I can be arsed to distill a load of water but I can run a few litres through my RO unit.

Oh yeah, and what the hell does BJCP stand for?

 

[DanRayner]

Oh yeah, and what the hell does BJCP stand for?

Beer Judging Certification Program for recognising and promoting beer judging within the amateur brewing circles - they're main organisers of many competitions. Check out the styles guidelines - they attempt to describe the parameters of different beer styles in terms of aroma, appearance, flavour, mouthfeel, overall impression as well as historically and in vital statistics.

There are pros and cons to this whole organisation and the training they guide you through and I'm sure we can turn this thread into the the incredibly polarised views that many on this forum will have about it but one could say that it has at least attempted to promote good beer appreciation

cheers,

D

 

[schooey]

So, I'm going to go right ahead and make the leap to the next logical question... Is the most effective ice (in this scenario at least) made out of distilled water? I don't know if I can be arsed to distill a load of water but I can run a few litres through my RO unit.

Nope... It will be more effective than the brine solution, but won't be as effective as the fangled ice gel packs like techni ice et al... They have all sorts of other modifiers in them to stay cold and solid long after water ice is melted.

Reminded me of a place I worked as a uni student though. They made these water purifiers that used this 'cold vaporisation' technology (efectively boiling the water in a vacuum and collecting the vapour) tp purify anything from river water to raw effluent and make it drinkable. They used to advertise at home shows and such by running the water through the machine numerous times until it was ultra pure and putting it in a sealed perspex box with a little TV in it. The TV would run along fine as there were no conductive elements left in the water, only H and O

I always imagined some kid going home and chucking the rankarena in the bath and frying himself and his kid brother.

 

[gone_fishing]

So, I'm going to go right ahead and make the leap to the next logical question... Is the most effective ice (in this scenario at least) made out of distilled water? I don't know if I can be arsed to distill a load of water but I can run a few litres through my RO unit.

Hey, You should do the experiment simultaneously in two small insulated boxes (like a little esky) and then log the results with a thermometer.

GF

 

[Strange Brew]

Repeating all those science subjects you failed no doubt

Alright - you may be right about those percentages. I shall admit defeat and walk away with my tail between my legs. When my brewing freezer is free - I'm going to make an 18% salt solution and set the temp to -14.6C and see what happens.

Lol, let me know how it goes, if it all freezes you and I can write a science paper together.

 

[stux]

Weird-ass sour beer from east germany. One of the few beer styles I have never tried but I'm pretty keen - it's so rare and difficult to get outside of east Germany that the BJCP doesn't include it in it's categories.

EDIT: what I mean by all this is: it's so rare and weird that I wouldn't worry too much about whether you've ever heard of it, it's unlikely that you'll be caught out in conversation when you admit you've never heard of it

I love a good Belgian Gueze, sounds similar... without the salt

 

[gone_fishing_]

Gueze is the only beer I cannot drink (and its the only one I left on wall after one sip in Belgium)

GF

 

[pimpsqueak]

Well, the results are in and the results are certainly in line with the theory.
The saltwater ice melted a lot faster than the normal ice. In fact, as it was to be expected, the higher the concentration of salt, the quicker it melted.
I got my hands on some techni ice and I'll see how that goes. In the meantime, it appears the easiest way to decrease the temp is to increase the volume of ice, not the type of ice