Roasting Grain

[sid]

Hit there all.

last week I roasted my own grains out of pilsner, i roasted what I consider to be vienna/light munich (200F for an hour) and went hard for chocolate but ended up only getting brown................I roasted at 400F for an hour, which I read should make chocolate grain, any ideas at the temp and Time I need to use to achieve my own chocolate grain?

the smell of the roasting was damn good going through the house, the brown smoked slightly..............I suppose the chocolate will smoke the house out, heheh.

Thanks guys

 

[unrealeous]

Hit there all.

last week I roasted my own grains out of pilsner, i roasted what I consider to be vienna/light munich (200F for an hour) and went hard for chocolate but ended up only getting brown................I roasted at 400F for an hour, which I read should make chocolate grain, any ideas at the temp and Time I need to use to achieve my own chocolate grain?

the smell of the roasting was damn good going through the house, the brown smoked slightly..............I suppose the chocolate will smoke the house out, heheh.

Thanks guys

I've never tried this - but it would appear you are probably not far off - another half an hour might do it. I believe the pro's force the hot air through the grain, so if you are using an oven, you might need even longer.

Roasted malts, black and chocolate, are produced by starting with a well modified malt that has been kilned. The malt is placed in a unvented roasting drum and heated to about 70 degrees. The malt is wetted to increase its moisture content to about 5%. The malt is held at this temperature and moisture content for about 2 hours after which the temperature is raised to somewhere between 175 and 200 [395F] degrees for about an hour and a half depending on the colour and flavour required.

http://www.absolutehomebrew.com.au/?page_id=29

 

[hazard]

Hit there all.

last week I roasted my own grains out of pilsner, i roasted what I consider to be vienna/light munich (200F for an hour) and went hard for chocolate but ended up only getting brown................I roasted at 400F for an hour, which I read should make chocolate grain, any ideas at the temp and Time I need to use to achieve my own chocolate grain?

As I understand, chocolate malt (and black malt) is roasted in a drum at high temp, and water is continuously injected to stop the malt from charring. This method was invented (and patented) in 1815, hence common name for black malt is still patent malt. The whole point of this, is that if you dry roast malt, it's possible to get brown malt, but go further and the malt will start to char. So, my assumption is that it is not possible to make youre own chocolate malt at home in the oven. But many home brew shops sell it .... (sorry to be a wise guy, home brew is of course a DIY hobby but how far do you take DIY??? Do you fabricate your own kettle from sheet metal? Do you injection mould your own esky mash tun? Do you make your own malt? NO!)

 

[zebba]

To quote Mosher from Radical Brewing:

Kilned grain will brew darker then it looks. A golden looking kernal will brew a pretty toasty tasting beer, and is suitable in brown ales. A copper colored [sic] grain tastes sharply roasty. Sometimes it's best to just go by the aroma, and take the grain out of the oven as soon as it smells right

In addition, he makes the following suggestions:
- A soak for a couple of hours before roasting will give a richer, maltier flavour. Roasting dry will tend towards sharper, dryer flavours.
- Give them a couple of weeks to mellow out or you'll get harsh, burnt aroma

I'm also looking to give this a bit of a try some time in the nearish future. I'd love to hear some results of the final brew.

 

[Nick JD]

When A BIABag has been hanging for an hour, a circle on the bottom of the bag about 10cm wide ends up covered in sticky sugaz.

I open the bag and scoop out all the sugarless grain and get about a cup or two of the sticky stuff at the bottom.

Spread it evenly on a tray and oven roast it until it's the right colour.

It's fully converted so not really darken grains but more caramelised maltose etc.

 

[Stagwa]

Hi Sid,

Check out These Guys in FNQ they malt and roast their own grain.

I think the key is to have a temp gauge in the grain inside the oven. I have tried to make roasted barley but relied on the oven temp controller and it took ages, wasn't as dark as I was expecting and maybe a bit dry but still had the roasted taste I was after.

Cheers,
Stagwa

 

[sid]

thanks for all the replies guys, good idea's.

I'll keep you posted on the beer I make using the vienna grain I roasted (sunday brew day), I'll be using 3kg of that in this batch, so it'll give me a good idea of the grains colour and flavour, smelt bloody good............amazing how much an hour changed the aroma of the pilsner.

Chocolate/roast might be best bought as I don't use too much of this, but I'll have a play during the day and see if I can achieve it.

I'll try spraying an a little manuka honey as well, onto a small batch of grain before I lightly roast it, hopefully it'll impart a good flavour.

Got to experiment, heheh.

 

[Nick JD]

Does roasting destroy the enzymes?

 

[Fourstar]

one way to keep the oven moist whilst you are roasting is to add a cake pan full of boiled kettle water to the bottom of the oven! :icon_cheers:

 

[Fourstar]

Hmm, you guys have kinda inspired me to have some fun tonight or tomorrow and roast some grains. maybe make a homemade brown malt, crystal and something else very cool!

Ive done a little googling and ive seen somone has used pearl barley to make roast barley. Very cool, it would almost be like a home made version of unmalted Carafa! :icon_cheers:

I might try and find a hippy/health store where i can get 'hulled barley' so its still got all the bran etc and isnt polished like pearl barley. a little more protection for the starch.

 

[zebba]

Does roasting destroy the enzymes?

My understanding was it did, but it was a gradual process.

If you read up on Biscuit or Vienna malts, for example, they have enough enzyme to convert themselves but if you are adding adjuncts (i.e. rice) there won't be enough to convert them.

But then, the darker you go with the malt, the less you're using in the grist, so you can just put in some pilsener if you are needing more converting power and it won't have a negative impact on the colour.

 

[Fourstar]

But then, the darker you go with the malt, the less you're using in the grist, so you can just put in some pilsener if you are needing more converting power and it won't have a negative impact on the colour.

Im tempted todo this and try and recreate a traditional porter or stout with highly kilned traditional style amber and brown malts.

 

[absinthe]

Vienna and Munich malts are kilned differently than pilsner and pale malts, pilsner and pale are dried and then kilned but Vienna and Munich are kilned with a lot more moisture still in the grain (this also destroys some of the enzyme) but also spend a lot of time being gently warmed in a humid environment but they are still kilned at about the same temp and length of time as plisner and pale but end up slightly darker as some of the sugars have been converted.

i have alway roasted my own malts, and you can make chocolate malt at home but patent malt is a little more difficult, but i have managed it, i roast in a deep tray inside a hooded BBQ as it can make lots of smoke, its very hard to get an even roast without a rolling drum, but it doesn't matter you will get more of a depth of flavor

also remember it will brew a lot darker than the grain looks..

also to see how its roasting split the grain in half and look at the starch it will darken almost twice as fast as the hull.

another good tip is to keep samples of malts you have made and liked (in my case). i keep a few whole and some split so i can see the insides stuck to the sheet i record all the temps methods and times for each malt i make, or to have a sample of the malt you want to reproduce. also pull the malt a little early as it will continue to darken slightly (unless like me you have converted a dryer as your malt dryer/kiln/roast malt cooler, because i can just throw the malt in the dryer when i like the roast and blast cold air through it to stop the roast.)

some very good resources:
http://oz.craftbrewer.org/Library/Methods/.../roasting.shtml
http://www.homebrewchatter.com/board/f34/m...al-malts-t7233/
http://mosquitobytes.com/Den/Beer/Hmbrewing/Malt.html
http://brewery.org/library/Malt_AK0996.html

Do you make your own malt? NO!)

I DO!!! i always have

 

[Fourstar]

Vienna and Munich malts are kilned differently than pilsner and pale malts, pilsner and pale are dried and then kilned but Vienna and Munich are kilned with a lot more moisture still in the grain (this also destroys some of the enzyme) but also spend a lot of time being gently warmed in a humid environment but they are still kilned at about the same temp and length of time as plisner and pale but end up slightly darker as some of the sugars have been converted.

My understanding was they are dried (post germination) at different temperatures and ventilation to obtain their desired moisture %!? Also, the higher kilned malts begin their kilning at a higher moisture content %. e.g. 20% for munich over 10% for pale/pilsner?!

An important thing to note is the extra mositure content does reduce the diastatic power as it is kilned but it does enable the malt to gain that characteristic melanoiden profile you seek from munich.

If you just bake pilsner/pale malt to turn it to munich, the melanoiden profile will not be the same as standard munich. A possible way to get around this would be to weigh the grain and steep in cold water until it gains 10% moisture~ then attempt to convert it to munich malt by baking at around 100-105deg for around 2 hours.

I wonder if its possible to make a brown malt @ munich temperatures (105 deg) and still keep the enzymatic power that Munich Malt has? This would be a great way to recreate a historic porter. With the exception of the traditional fire dried smoke effect, a 10% rauchmaltz addition would cover that or indirectly smoke some of the brown malt might be an option too.

ideas ideas ideas. Ive got a few plans floating around for the VICBREW specialty category for this year, im sure this one will go into the thought bag. :icon_cheers:

 

[Fourstar]

Wow, some detailed kilning infromation available rom castle maltings. :icon_cheers:

i might send them an email about recreating traditional brown malt in the home environment.

http://www.castlemalting.com/CastleMalting...anguage=English

 

[Fourstar]

so ive got myself 500g of JW Pils

Soaked it in filtered water for 20 mins.

Cranked to oven to 190, once at temp dumped the gran in and stirred x2 every 5 mins to dry the malt out.

dropped to 165~ for 20 mins and stirred every ten mins x2 Cranked abck to 190 until the malt began to pop like popcorn and pulled it out (like 1st crack with coffee.)

Turns out the kilning is exactly how i wanted it. Very very close in appearance(the endosperm) to Dingemans biscuit. :icon_cheers:

Flavour. well when chewed the dingemans biscuit is somewhat sweet with overtones of old bread and breadcrusts. slightly doughy and somewheat melanoiden like.

My biscuit (still warm, will have to retaste in a weeks time after mellowing) big starchy nuttiness, mildy sweet (remnants of the pils malt falvour) and deep munich like breadcrust/bakery notes.

pics to follow

Tomorrow, medium crystal wheat and traditional style brown malt (after learning about the popping stage, also known as blown malt.) :icon_cheers:

the whole house smells like a digestive biscuit atm! :icon_drool2:

 

[Wolfy]

any ideas at the temp and Time I need to use to achieve my own chocolate grain?

Not sure I can help you with chocolate, but this table from Radical Brewing (pp 225) might help others attempting to roast their own grains:
"Time / Temp C / Colour (L) / Flavour
20 / 121 / Pale Gold (10) / Nutty, not toasty
25 / 149 / Gold (20) / Malty, caramelly rich, not toasty
30 / 177 / Amber (35) / Nutty, malty, lightly toasty
40 / 191 / Deep Amber (65) / Nutty, toffee-like, crisp toastiness
30 / 204 / Copper (100) / Strong toasted flavour, some nutlike notes
40 / 204 / Deep Copper (125) / Roated, not toated, like porter or coffee
50 / 204 / Brown (175) / Strong roasted flavor

For amber first wet the malt by soaking for fifteen minutes or so."

Unfortunately it seems that roasting-your-own is very much a test-it-and-see type approach. Even in the book on various different pages the time/temperature/duration suggested varies quite dramatically.

I've made some nice Amber and Brown toasted malt (it's in the mash tun right now) but am not yet at the sage where I can duplicate/predict what will happen with each batch.
I use the table above to predict oven temps, then check/taste/stir (especially for wet grain) every 10 mins until I have the flavour/colour I'm looking for.

Two more notes from the book to keep in mind when roasting-your-own:
"Always keep in mind that malt brews darker than it looks."
"Do this a couple of weeks in advance to allow the harsh flavors to mellow before brewing."

 

[sid]

Tomorrow, medium crystal wheat and traditional style brown malt (after learning about the popping stage, also known as blown malt.) :icon_cheers:

the whole house smells like a digestive biscuit atm! :icon_drool2:

Its addictive this roasting, I done the old taste test on the brown, tasted quite nutty to me, cut the kernel open and had quite rich brown colour in there.................wish I'd soaked my grain a bit now, as this would have put a slight crystal coating on the grain I think..............next time.

The brown really popped compared the the vienna, Id say the the darker grains would go off like a rocket, heh.

Good info coming up on this, absinth your coverted dryer sounds very interesting.

My grains have been resting a week sunday, so I'll turn out a batch of beer sunday and see what it makes.

 

[sid]

Not sure I can help you with chocolate, but this table from Radical Brewing (pp 225) might help others attempting to roast their own grains:
"Time / Temp C / Colour (L) / Flavour
20 / 121 / Pale Gold (10) / Nutty, not toasty
25 / 149 / Gold (20) / Malty, caramelly rich, not toasty
30 / 177 / Amber (35) / Nutty, malty, lightly toasty
40 / 191 / Deep Amber (65) / Nutty, toffee-like, crisp toastiness
30 / 204 / Copper (100) / Strong toasted flavour, some nutlike notes
40 / 204 / Deep Copper (125) / Roated, not toated, like porter or coffee
50 / 204 / Brown (175) / Strong roasted flavor

For amber first wet the malt by soaking for fifteen minutes or so."

Unfortunately it seems that roasting-your-own is very much a test-it-and-see type approach. Even in the book on various different pages the time/temperature/duration suggested varies quite dramatically.

I've made some nice Amber and Brown toasted malt (it's in the mash tun right now) but am not yet at the sage where I can duplicate/predict what will happen with each batch.
I use the table above to predict oven temps, then check/taste/stir (especially for wet grain) every 10 mins until I have the flavour/colour I'm looking for.

Two more notes from the book to keep in mind when roasting-your-own:
"Always keep in mind that malt brews darker than it looks."
"Do this a couple of weeks in advance to allow the harsh flavors to mellow before brewing."

some good stuff there wolfy, I had to allowed an extra 10 minutes for the brown........due to my old oven.
One thing with the darker grain, is cooling them down, mine I would say cooked on a bit more than I wanted as I put them from the roasting dish to a glass bowl...........I think I'd better spread them out next time to cool quicker.

 

[Fourstar]

some good stuff there wolfy, I had to allowed an extra 10 minutes for the brown........due to my old oven.

From what i can gather according to the flavour notes, the colours being discussed there are the colour of the grain husk, not the actual Lov of the kilned malt/endosperm. As you can see, the noted colour there is 170L where as brown malt is usually around 60 Lov. the malt you have produced is something more akin to and acrid chocolate malt.

Im tempted todo this whole blown malt / brown malt thing and pull out a traditional style 1800 style porter as they started to convert to using some pale malt W/black patent malt etc due to the cost of malt.

A recipe like

66% Ale
33% Brown Malt/Blown Malt
1% Roast Barley/Black Patent.


Now im sure you are thinking the colour is off. Well thats true, its also believed the old day porters where not so much black/stout territory but light brown to even red in some texts ive read. More reading to follow. :icon_cheers: