Rims Or Herms

[MarkBastard]

Thanks Thristy Boy, I could not see any reason why it would not work so I made a start.
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That looks awesome.

Could you not BIAB in that?

Fill it up with water and use the element to heat the water to strike temps. Maybe an additional immersion element to make it quicker.
Put bag in, dough in, then constantly recirculate.
Lift bag and drain and use element in bottom + immersion element as a boiler.

Thirsty Boy may like to comment with regards to ramping to mashout temps without stirring.

 

[MeLoveBeer]

I'd be curious as to whether or not the fact that grain does not move causes caramelisation (similar to a decoction). To some extent the constant recirculation of the wort should reduce the effect, but it'd be interesting to mash something like a pilsner or something and see what it does to the colour and body of the produced wort.

 

[argon]

That looks awesome.

Yeah I agree that looks cool... been thinking of adding a herms or rims... but upgrading the mash tun with an element below the falsy looks like a good option. That way just adding a pump to recirc, PID and temp probe on mash outlet to control. Very nice, very simple.

 

[beerbrewer76543]

Yeah I agree that looks cool... been thinking of adding a herms or rims... but upgrading the mash tun with an element below the falsy looks like a good option. That way just adding a pump to recirc, PID and temp probe on mash outlet to control. Very nice, very simple.

This is what I am building... Must upload some pics!

 

[jackson]

When do you plan on using this? Please note down ramp times etc with volumes. I was just thinking about doing the same to get rid of my herms. The herms works well and I pretty much had a worry free brew day today but I think you could get better ramp times with this system. Maybe I'll use both. Keep the reports coming.

I'm still about 2-3 weeks away ? will let you know the ramp times

 

[jackson]

Did you buy the element from crown themselves?? I like this so much i might build one just for the hell of it, i've got all the bits but the element anyway.

No I got it from Tobins as Crown was closed for an extra week over xmas

http://www.tobins.com.au/HTML/ClassHTML/175.htm

 

[MarkBastard]

No I got it from Tobins as Crown was closed for an extra week over xmas

http://www.tobins.com.au/HTML/ClassHTML/175.htm

That's good to hear. A lot of people are worried their crown urn elements are going to die one day but if they're only $60 it's not the end of the world. Can almost consider it a consumable at that price.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

No I got it from Tobins as Crown was closed for an extra week over xmas

http://www.tobins.com.au/HTML/ClassHTML/175.htm

Thanks, i'll be ordering one of those in the next couple of days.

TB

 

[jackson]

When do you plan on using this? Please note down ramp times etc with volumes. I was just thinking about doing the same to get rid of my herms. The herms works well and I pretty much had a worry free brew day today but I think you could get better ramp times with this system. Maybe I'll use both. Keep the reports coming.

Had a trial run with 30L of water. No grain & no pump so figures probably do not mean much. Temperature gain speed is certainly not impressive however its a Mash Tun not HLT or Kettle so I think it will do the job.

Time 0 = 28 temp
T 10 = 40
T 20 = 50
T 30 =59
T 40 = 68
T 50 = 76
T 55 = 80

 

[hockadays]

Good stuff thanks for the repot. Are you going to biab or normal mash...

 

[Thirsty Boy]

About a degree a minute - which is pretty normal for a RIMS or HERMS and plenty good enough. You might lose a little bit to the pump, hose and connections - but a little insulation on the tun and a lid on (not sure if you had it during the test) will give some of that back.

 

[sim]

Time 0 = 28 temp
T 10 = 40
T 20 = 50
T 30 =59
T 40 = 68
T 50 = 76
T 55 = 80

Hey Jackson, was that the 2400w or 1500w concealed urn element you got? seriously keen on one for a herms thingy dingy.

sim

 

[jackson]

Good stuff thanks for the repot. Are you going to biab or normal mash...

Normal Mash

 

[jackson]

Hey Jackson, was that the 2400w or 1500w concealed urn element you got? seriously keen on one for a herms thingy dingy.

sim

2400w

 

[jackson]

About a degree a minute - which is pretty normal for a RIMS or HERMS and plenty good enough. You might lose a little bit to the pump, hose and connections - but a little insulation on the tun and a lid on (not sure if you had it during the test) will give some of that back.

No insulation yet,
I also tried using a 16amp temp controller (set with .5 deg temp tolerance & 1 min compressor time) to check the temp over shotting.

set to 66 deg temp

1. reached 66 & over shot to 66.4
2. element restarted 49 min @ 65.4 over shot to 66.9
3. restart 40 min @ 65.5 over shot to 66.6
4. restart 31 min@ 65.3 over shot to 66.8
5. restart 23 min @ 65.4 over shot to 66.7
6 restart 14 min @ 66.4 over shot to 66.8

So I think with insulation on it should cut the restarts down to 3 per hour. What do you think about having the pump only recirculating when the element is on?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I'm not a fan of that - you will get all sorts of weird shit going on with the temp if the flow rate in the pump is too low - pulling heat from the bottom, dumping some of it back on top etc etc - and you will need the flow rate reasonably low if the pump is going to go on and off - or it will (might, probably will) pull the grain bed down onto the plate too hard and compact it, ruining your efficiency, sticking your mash and in this sort of system, probably burning the shit out of your grains.

But, it might not happen - worth testing out and pretty easy to test too.

The standard set up for a "brutus" system, which is pretty much what you have, is to recirculate constantly and measure your wort temperature as it exits the kettle directly off the element, tht way you are getting your temp at its maximum and can be sure things aren't overheating and screwing up your enzymes.

Constant re-circ is little effort to get set up in the first place, but once you have the knack of it, its no harder than having the re-circ kick in and out - and it has advantages in efficiency, wort clarity, heat distlrubution in the mash tun and therefore consistency and predicatbility.

 

[jackson]

I'm not a fan of that - you will get all sorts of weird shit going on with the temp if the flow rate in the pump is too low - pulling heat from the bottom, dumping some of it back on top etc etc - and you will need the flow rate reasonably low if the pump is going to go on and off - or it will (might, probably will) pull the grain bed down onto the plate too hard and compact it, ruining your efficiency, sticking your mash and in this sort of system, probably burning the shit out of your grains.

But, it might not happen - worth testing out and pretty easy to test too.

The standard set up for a "brutus" system, which is pretty much what you have, is to recirculate constantly and measure your wort temperature as it exits the kettle directly off the element, tht way you are getting your temp at its maximum and can be sure things aren't overheating and screwing up your enzymes.

Constant re-circ is little effort to get set up in the first place, but once you have the knack of it, its no harder than having the re-circ kick in and out - and it has advantages in efficiency, wort clarity, heat distlrubution in the mash tun and therefore consistency and predicatbility.

Thanks Thirsty constant recirculating it is much appreciated

 

[hockadays]

That ramp rate is good. With 2200W herms I get about a degree a minute but then you have to still run the rest of the mash through as well so the body of the mash lags by about 5 to 10 mins. It would be good if they made a 3000W one of these at this stage I can only see a 2400W one on the website. The final test will be to see if you get any scorching with the domed false bottom.. I agree with the constant recirc as well. Would be much easier and more stable for the PID to work with..

 

[grimpanda]

Really like your setup Jackson - very neat solution. I've been looking for a way to implement HERMS into my system mainly for the purpose of maintaining single-step mashes (on my 6th AG brew and yet to delve into step-mashing). Not having a seperate vessel & additional fittings etc to keep clean is a big plus in my mind also.

Would be interested to know if you notice any additional caramelisation/burnt character with grain potentially getting through the falsie and sitting on the element. Whenever I empty my mashtun I'm always surprised by the amount of grain sitting underneath it, although I can't be sure how much of this is from it getting bumped around when scooping out the spent grain.

 

[hockadays]

Jackson also noticed from the photo with the false bottom that you may be using silicon tubing from the false bottom to the tap. If this is correct you might get grain underneath and stuck onto the element. I would look at hardening this up if I was you with either copper or stainless pipe.