RF10 - Alternative to Starsan?

[slcmorro]

Hey guys,

Just wanted to share this with you... I used to use StarSan until I came across this.

http://www.agar.com.au/Browse-Products/RF-10-no-rinse-sanitiser.aspx

I bought me a 5L bottle of it from my local 'Cleaners Room' for $20, and I've used it on my equipment with my last 3 brews with no ill effects.
There's a lot out there that swear by Starsan of course, and rightfully so. Not saying this is better/worse, but it is cheaper and it does work just as well.
By all means, continue with whatever you want to use, I'm purely highlighting something that works for me and is cheaper.

Cheers.

 

[vonromanz]

Hi

That is a Quaternary Ammonium sanitiser. It's good for gram-positive bacteria, but not so affective against gram-negative bacteria. Apart from that, it has a negative impact on beer head retention. I wouldn't use it.

Cheers

 

[slcmorro]

Hi bud,

I appreciate your reply! Can you expand a little further?

Thanks.

 

[citizensnips]

Im just gonna throw in my 2c here. Now that vonromanz has thrown a bunch of doubt in your mind about its effectiveness with brewing....and when starsan is so widely used, so widely accepted and proven, sold where brewing gear is sold, cheap as hell, lasts for ever......why would you want to find an alternative? You would be saving cents that could from what vonromanz has said cost you a brew with infection. Not trying to rain on your parade, by all means use what ever you want.....just seems a why fix it if it aint broke situation to me

 

[GalBrew]

From a food safety point of view (although it is food grade), I would rather have a the residues of a sanitiser based on phosphoric acid (which can be added to beer to reduce mash pH) in my beer, than one based on quaternary ammonium compounds. There probably isn't much in at the concentrations left in the finished product, but that's my 2c either way.

 

[manticle]

What's the dilution rate?

 

[slcmorro]

My experiment that led me to using it wasn't a matter of saving a few cents, it was running out of Brew Essentials No-Rinse on bottling day, and not being able to wait for Starsan to be posted haha

Although I haven't used it extensively (3 brews as mentioned), I'll wear the cost of an infected brew if it turns out to be sub par. Home brewing for me, is all about experimenting and learning new methods etc, and if I discontinue it's use for brewing, I've got 5L of all purpose kitchen cleaner on hand!

Before people used Starsan or other related products, I'm sure the same concerns existed. I agree that Starsan is a great product, massively used and specifically geared towards the brewing industry and has well earned it's place, this is but a mere alternative that has worked for me thus far.

The dilution rate as per the bottle says:

Hard, Non-Porous Surfaces - 1:250 (80ml per 20L)
Porous and Semi-Porous Surfaces (Heavy Duty Sanitising) - 1:80 (250ml per 20L)

It requires a bit more than Starsan obviously, based on those dilution rates to be effective.

I sent Agar an email yesterday, requesting that one of their chemists share their thoughts about the effect it has on yeast, flavour, plastic/glass etc.

Edit: Fat fingers.

 

[citizensnips]

Fair enough, your right about the kitchen cleaner as well. Best of luck

 

[Edak]

At those dilution rates I would argue that starsan is cheaper....

 

[slcmorro]

At those dilution rates I would argue that starsan is cheaper....

After doing the maths, it seems you are correct.

 

[vonromanz]

There are a few different types of sanitisers used in the brewing industry, including quaternary ammonium compounds. Some are just better than others for different applications. You can use it if you use a final rinse of sterile water removing any residue. I just don't like the idea that it doesn't kill all bacteria and that it can have a negative effect on head retention. Just my personal preference. I'm sure there are many successful commercial breweries using it, I just prefer Peroxyacetic acid or an anionic acid sanitiser

Cheers

 

[slcmorro]

Fair enough, I appreciate the explanation bud

How does it have a negative effect on Head Retention?

 

[slcmorro]

I'll be the first to admit when something doesn't go well...

I'm still waiting for my CraftBrewer order (slight hiccup, nothing big) so I was forced to use RF10 in setting up my first keg. Needless to say, it hasn't done what I wanted it to.
Sure, I don't have any infections as such, but the entire keg tastes like it now, after being sanitised with it as you would with Starsan. Beer lines, everything else also.

I think it'll be my new floor mopping liquid.

 

[Bizier]

Quat is good for cleaning the hard surfaces in your brew area, kitchen benches and sinks etc.

 

[vonromanz]

Fair enough, I appreciate the explanation bud

How does it have a negative effect on Head Retention?

Hey, sorry for the late reply...I don't know the chemistry behind it, just that allot of brewing books say that. Good enough reason for me to go with that.

Cheers

 

[slcmorro]

All good mate. The head I'm getting on the beer is actually quite good, which is why I asked. The residual taste however, is enough to make me not use it for that purpose again, and turn anyone I may have remotely convinced away from it also.