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Recipe Check - NS Pale Ale

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Pickaxe

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Hey All,

Just wanted to get an idiot check on a recipe. It's pretty straight forward but I'm new to using Beersmith and am still getting my head around it. This is based loosely on the Smurto Golden Ale and NS Summer Ale recipes I've seen.

Q: Is this too much spec grain? I usually only see 500g or less, but can you go for more?

Q: Pretty sure my hop schedule is OK, but like i said, just looking for an idiot check.

Thanks all, any suggestions greatly appreciated.
Pickaxe.


Type: Extract


Date: 08/04/2013

Batch Size: 23.00 L


Brewer: Cuntface

Boil Size: 15.00 L

Asst Brewer:

Boil Time: 60 min

Equipment: My Equipment

Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0

Brewhouse Efficiency: -

Taste Notes:



Ingredients




Amount

Item

Type

% or IBU

0.50 kg

Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC)

Dry Extract

11.8 %

3.00 kg

Pale Liquid Extract (15.8 EBC)

Extract

70.6 %

0.75 kg

Caramel Wheat Malt (90.6 EBC)

Grain

17.6 %

30.00 gm

Nelson Sauvin [10.50%] (20 min)

Hops

15.3 IBU

15.00 gm

Nelson Sauvin [10.50%] (60 min)

Hops

12.7 IBU

30.00 gm

Nelson Sauvin [10.50%] (0 min)

Hops

-




Beer Profile


Est Original Gravity: 1.048 SG


Measured Original Gravity: 1.045 SG

Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG

Measured Final Gravity: 1.012 SG

Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.7 %

Actual Alcohol by Vol: 4.3 %

Bitterness: 28.0 IBU

Calories: 420 cal/l

Est Color: 25.0 EBC

Color:

Color
 

Pickaxe

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Sorry, doesn't hold tables.:

Amount Item Type % or IBU
0.50 kg Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC) Dry Extract 11.8 %
3.00 kg Pale Liquid Extract (15.8 EBC) Extract 70.6 %
0.75 kg Caramel Wheat Malt (90.6 EBC) Grain 17.6 %
15.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [10.50%] (60 min) Hops 12.7 IBU
30.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [10.50%] (20 min) Hops 15.3 IBU
0.00 gm Nelson Sauvin [10.50%] (0 min) Hops -
US 05 Yeast.
 

tiprya

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Probably a bit too much caramel grain in there. The percentage (in terms of an all-grain beer) is a bit lower than the stated 17.6% (because extract has more potential sugar per weight then grain) but I'd still keep it below 10%.

Hop schedule looks good to me.
 

sponge

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I'd almost be tempted to move the 60min to 40min and adjust weights to keep the same IBU's due to some reporting harshness at 60min (ive never used it above 30min so cant comment).

Definitely (roughly) half the caramel wheat addition as per tiprya's suggestion.
 

Pickaxe

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Just out of interest, tiprya, what's the issue with using too much caramel grain?
 

Pickaxe

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So sponge - is NS like Galaxy that you're better getting the IBUs from later additions?
 

tiprya

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Caramel grains have quite strong flavours, add body and a little bit of unfermentable sugar.

Too much in the wrong style of beer can put it out of balance. I like a little in my pale ales to give some caramel flavours to match the fruity hops, and prefer more in english style beers to give that chewy-caramel mouthfeel/flvaour to go with more malty balanced beers.

Generally for a pale ale I like to use ~5% crystal, but some people prefer more, up to around 10%, but usually using lighter caramel grains. 10% Caraaroma or Special B (very dark caramel grains) would be very overpowering, for example. I haven't used caramel wheat, so I'm not sure how dark it is or how strong the flavours are.
 

tiprya

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Just out of personal experience, when I started brewing, I used lots of caramel grains under the thinking 'more flavours are better', but I've found my beers have improved as I have started to use less of them.
 

Pickaxe

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thanks for the advice. I think i could be falling in that trap. learnt that with cooking too - adding more and more spice or salt doesnt necessarily make it taste better.
 

Lord Raja Goomba I

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I generally try to keep spec (sweet) malts not more than 12% of grist (or malt bill in your case) and generally around 9%. I might push higher around 12%, when i need a big body, I have bigger abv% (either higher OG or lower FG) and definitely more IBU to counter it.

Goomba
 

Nick JD

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Pickaxe said:
So sponge - is NS like Galaxy that you're better getting the IBUs from later additions?
I don't get harsh flavours with NS.

The only issue with NS in large amounts by itself is the cat pissy hints.
 

sponge

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Most of my (non-UK) pale ales don't have an addition earlier than 30min so i've never had an issue with harshness either, just reflecting some comments I have read previously.

That being said, I mostly use NS to complement other hops as opposed to having them flying solo.
 

Pickaxe

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@ Goomba - thanks - I've been wondering about specs that state recommendations about max bill %. Still don't quite get the diff between spec grain and mashing. Wanting to get into partials soon to get more flavour range (yes, I know AG is "just as easy", but I think there is more to principles i need to learn first...)

@ NickJD - Cat piss hints? By the profile pic, I'm guessing a big NS fan? hehehe. Seriously, Would you go a 60 min addition with NS? Got warned off that with Galaxy, and can kinda see why with 30-20 min adds doing the job there. Going off a NS Summer Ale recipe it's nothing to worry about?

@ sponge - See where you're coming from - guess ATM I'm trying single hops to get an idea of what each of them do. Not quite curious to blend yet as I don't know what I'm blending and am being a cheap asshole with hop purchases...

Appreciate the feedback.
 

Nick JD

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Pickaxe said:
@ NickJD - Cat piss hints? By the profile pic, I'm guessing a big NS fan? hehehe. Seriously, Would you go a 60 min addition with NS? Got warned off that with Galaxy, and can kinda see why with 30-20 min adds doing the job there. Going off a NS Summer Ale recipe it's nothing to worry about?
Again, there's no issues when using NS at any time in the boil, or even using large amounts anywhere. What you will get say, if you use a lot of it to give 40 IBUs with a single 15 minute addition is a significant Sav Blanc flavour of white wine grapes, a touch of passionfruit and goosberry ... and a lingering dry pissy taste. Hints of unclean urinal. Don't get me wrong though, it's not entirely unpleasant in the same way PoR is like a truckie's armpits, but not in a bad way.

I find NS's good points can be got, and it's strong character lost, simply by mixing it with another fruity hop. Fat Yak does this well by adding Cascade.

Getting OT, but the best way I found to use NS alone was using it with very estery yeasts. That way my beer didn't taste like weak, fizzy wine.
 

Nick JD

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Goomba, your "spec malt enzymes" thing is a little confusing.

Spec malts are just base malts that have already been mashed ... but mashed whole. (All their insides are alreasy converted from starch to sugars.) Then, they are dried out with different amounts of heat and time to get darker.

As an example, Carabohemian is a Bohemian Pilsner malt that's been mashed whole and then roasted to caramelise the sugars in the grain.

When you mill, and add these spec grains to warm water - the sugars in them simply dissolve.

Spec malts are LDME stuck in a grain husk.
 

Lord Raja Goomba I

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Nick JD said:
Goomba, your "spec malt enzymes" thing is a little confusing.

Spec malts are just base malts that have already been mashed ... but mashed whole. (All their insides are alreasy converted from starch to sugars.) Then, they are dried out with different amounts of heat and time to get darker.

As an example, Carabohemian is a Bohemian Pilsner malt that's been mashed whole and then roasted to caramelise the sugars in the grain.

When you mill, and add these spec grains to warm water - the sugars in them simply dissolve.

Spec malts are LDME stuck in a grain husk.
I'm more than happy to be wrong. I was of the understanding that there was no converted sugars in spec malts, and that whatever process they went through prevented that. It's probably based on teh fact that a number of my favourite spec malts (biscuit, etc) are listed on CB website as 'no enzymes'.

I'd better delete that post then.

That being the case, I suppose the next question is 'why does using spec malts generally end up with sweeter wort?'. Thinking ahead, I assume the answer must be that spec malts are mashed higher, but I'm going to research that.

Thanks Nick, more research, not a lot of work this afternoon.
 

Lord Raja Goomba I

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Okey dokey, now I get it. I was closer than I thought, but not quite.

Specialty malts have little diastatic power; they are used to provide flavor, color, or "body" (viscosity) to the finished beer. Specialty caramel or crystal malts have been subjected to heat treatment to convert their starches to sugars nonenzymatically.

From the interwebs.

So basically, the process they go through converts the starches, but not enzymatically. So that's why spec malts have no diastatic power - because they lack the enzymes due to the process they've already been through.

Thanks again, I clarified something that has bugged me.
 

Pickaxe

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But still, using more than 10% in a brew is gonna give too much flavour and sweetness yeah?
If you find out why Goomba, would love to know too.
 

Lord Raja Goomba I

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According to BYO - some specialty malts do need mashing. Because they are considered "specialty" malts but are just plain old fashioned malts which get used more as a 'spec' malt in use rather than by definition - this seems to apply to non-cara malts, such as special B, biscuit, black, roasted, munich and those malts we traditionally consider as base malts (the pilsners, ales, etc). This gives weight to nick's comments as well.

Still can't find a reason why @Pickaxe, but it appears as though most of my anecdotal experience using spec malts is identical to what's out there - namely 10% is about the limit. No reason why, other than vague noises about too much flavour and sweetness.

I found the same thing with using Rye as a specialty malt in APA - more than about 4% was too much for my tastes.
 

Nick JD

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Munich and Vienna aren't spec malts - just dark base malts. The other one that's a bit different is melanoidin.

Caramunich is munich malt gone through the spec malt process.

It's entirely possible to use more than 10% spec malts in a beer - depending on the malt. If you look through the Weyermann website you can see the recommended maximums. Some of them are nutso high, but depend on the style and most impostantly the yeast. I'd like to see where a belgian Saison finished with 100% spec malts.
 

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