Question About High Gravity Worts

[vlbaby]

Gday guys,
I'm thinking of tackling a AG high gravity beer next, but a question has come to mind that i have been unable to find the answer for.

My recipe calls for 10kg of grain to make 25L at 1.088SG. If I was making an ordinary beer, 10 KG of grain would make close to 50L of beer if i sparged it as normal. If I am to acheive a SG of 1.088 at 25L ( post boil of course), do I only collect the first runnings of the wort and waste the rest? Or do I collect the runnings as normal and boil the wort down until it hits a higher gravity?
What technique is generally employed here?

BTW I am a batch sparger.

Thanks

vl.

 

[berapnopod]

What I do is always calculate by volumes of liquid. So just work out how much sparge water you will need to get your pre-boil volume into your kettle and you should be right.

Berp.

 

[Ross]

Vlbaby,

A tip to get better extraction when batch sparging a high gravity ale.
After mashing, run the wort into your kettle before sparging. If you have a hand held immersion, heat it to sparge temp first, if not just drain at mash temp. Then batch sparge in the usual manner.

Cheers Ross

 

[warrenlw63]

VL.

You could always parti-gyle like the old time brewers. Run off your pre-boil volume of HG wort in the normal manner.

Then you could sparge off the same pre-boil amount of the second runnings or slightly less and top up with water and make what's deemed a "small beer" or "twopenny ale". This sets your mind at rest in terms of wasting the remaining grain sugars.

Would probably add a little extra time to the brewday but give you a bit of extra value for your grain dollar. The small beer would be a good test bed for the no chill method.

Warren -

 

[Jye]

You may get lower efficiency with such a large grain bill. Try taking a gravity reading before draining the first runnings (with the recirculated runnings), this will tell you weather or not you can get away with just using the first runnings.

 

[warrenlw63]

Shouldn't be the case Jye.

I routinely do 45 litre batches with about 9kg of grain.

I find my efficiency is *slightly* better than when I was doing 23 litre batches. Don't ask why, it just seems to be the case.

What may lower the efficiency slightly is the viscosity of the higher gravity (first) runnings. Doing mashout and keeping the grainbed at the right should help. Probably a good idea to (slow) fly sparge also.

But yes, checking the preboil gravity will ascertain whether more needs to be runoff to the kettle (and subsequently boiled down) later on.

Warren -

 

[Ross]

Shouldn't be the case Jye.

I routinely do 45 litre batches with about 9kg of grain.

I find my efficiency is *slightly* better than when I was doing 23 litre batches. Don't ask why, it just seems to be the case.

[post="125659"][/post]​

Warren,

I agree a 45L batch with 9kg of grain is going to give you an equal or maybe better efficiency than 23L with say 4.5kg or 5kg of grain.

But we are talking 10kg for a 25L batch here - With a straight batch sparge the 2nd runnings will still have a pretty high gravity, since the wort is only being dilluted with approx 10L of water each time, hence I've found the efficiency does suffer.

cheers Ross

cheers Ross

 

[vlbaby]

Thanks for the replies guys.
I think i will mash in with 3L/kg which should give me a first runoff of 20L, then I'll add another 15L for a single sparge. That should give me a pre-boil volume of 35L. With my kettle, 10L is no problem for evaporation.

I would expect a lower efficiency ( maybe 60 - 65 %?) from all this as ross pointed out, so I guess that is normal for these type beers?

Maybe a second, small beer might be in order as warren said, if I'm not too bent out of shape by the end of brew day.

Thanks again guys

vl.


edit. 15L sparge not 10L

 

[Ross]

vlbaby,

Mash in with 2.5/L, drain & double batch sparge - I get 75% which is my regular efficiency without the drain off.

cheers Ross

 

[Darren]

I would sparge as usual and boil for two or more hours. These beer take months to mature and get better for years. 20 or so litres will be gone before it is at its best. Make the batch as big as you can. Finally, cool properly and pitch onto a yeast cake from a previous batch to get it to ferment out fully.

cheers
Darren

 

[vlbaby]

vlbaby,

Mash in with 2.5/L, drain & double batch sparge - I get 75% which is my regular efficiency without the drain off.

cheers Ross

[post="125771"][/post]​

so a 25L mash-in + 10L sparge + 10L sparge seem ok?

Should give 35L if i calculated right.

Darren, unfortunately i dont have a previous batch, so a BIG starter will have to do.

vl.

 

[Ross]

vlbaby,

Mash in with 2.5/L, drain & double batch sparge - I get 75% which is my regular efficiency without the drain off.

cheers Ross

[post="125771"][/post]​

so a 25L mash-in + 10L sparge + 10L sparge seem ok?

Should give 35L if i calculated right.

Darren, unfortunately i dont have a previous batch, so a BIG starter will have to do.

vl.

[post="125779"][/post]​

sounds good - drain the mash (15L in the kettle) then add 10L of boiling water & drain, then add 10L of approx 85c water (i find if you boil 20L & just let the 2nd 10L cool naturally while doing the first sparge, it'll be spot on)

Good luck

Ross

 

[vlbaby]

boiling water? I thought that was supposed to disolve excessive tannins?


vl.

 

[Darren]

vlbaby,

Mash in with 2.5/L, drain & double batch sparge - I get 75% which is my regular efficiency without the drain off.

cheers Ross

[post="125771"][/post]​

so a 25L mash-in + 10L sparge + 10L sparge seem ok?

Should give 35L if i calculated right.

Darren, unfortunately i dont have a previous batch, so a BIG starter will have to do.

vl.

[post="125779"][/post]​

vl,
hope it is BIG. If I were you I would make a smaller beer forst (which of course you could drink early) then pitch the big beer on the cake.

cheers
Darren


BTW, never add boiling water to your sparge.

 

[Ross]

boiling water? I thought that was supposed to disolve excessive tannins?

[post="125783"][/post]​

Vlbaby,

Adding boiling water to a 65c mash will only bring your mash out temp upto the high 70's. You want the mash out temp nice & high to wash out that sugar. Also tannin extraction is only really a problem with fly sparging (above 80c), where the top grains are completely flushed of sugar & the water starts extracting tannins - You could batch sparge with 90c water without any problems.
There are a lot of brewers batch sparging at temps well below optimum.

cheers Ross

 

[Darren]

A bit of tannin isn't a bad thing in a big beer. My experience has been that efficiency rates don't really climb with hotter sparge water, only the risk of extracting unwanted. Keep your sparge cool and you will have less chill-haze.


cheers
Darren

 

[johnno]

Darren, unfortunately i dont have a previous batch, so a BIG starter will have to do.

vl.

I hope its this BIG vlbaby.
This ones for my Belgian this weekend.

and i am aerating as well.

cheers johnno

 

[Darren]

Johnno, remember to tip that spent wort off the top before pitching as it will be oxidised.

cheers
darren

 

[vlbaby]

Darren, unfortunately i dont have a previous batch, so a BIG starter will have to do.

vl.

I hope its this BIG vlbaby.
This ones for my Belgian this weekend.

and i am aerating as well.

cheers johnno

[post="125799"][/post]​

Thats not BIG johnno its HUGE! If i had a starter that big sitting around the house i probably wouldn't bother having a brew day. I'd just drink the starter i reckon.
Good luck with your brew day.
I think mine might be few weeks away i fear.

vl.

 

[johnno]

Johnno, remember to tip that spent wort off the top before pitching as it will be oxidised.

cheers
darren

[post="125803"][/post]​

That is exactly what I am planning to do Darren.
No way all that is going into the wort.

cheers
johnno