Pilsener Malt Gravity Question

[Wall]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Hi All[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]I've been brewing all grain about 7 or 8 months now and all has been going reasonably well (few hits and a few misses but learning a hell of a lot the whole time, slowly getting better)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Latest batch has me stumped on my gravity readings though.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]I've just put down a Mountain Goat Steam Ale styled ale.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]It was 25% Weyerman Wheat and 75% Best Malz Pilsener mashed BIAB @ 66 degrees with a recirc pump running throughout.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]I had 4.4kg total grain bill into 30 odd litres of water (can't remember the exact volume sorry as I don't have my brew book at work with me).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]This was the first time that I have used pilsener malt. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Strange thing was that i had really low gravity readings during the mash. At 60 min mash I was barely reading 1020 ended up with a 120min mash to get 1032.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]90 min boil got me to desired gravity of 1044 (aiming for 4.4% abv). [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Just haven’t had such poor results in the mash before, wondering if this is typical of Pilsener malts or if I’ve gone wrong somewhere and should trouble shoot. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Hopefully all that info’s helpful rather than longwinded……[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Cheers[/SIZE]

 

[Mickcr250]

Probably due to the pH with such a pale beer and also I assume you mashed fairly low ? That can take longer for the enzyme s to do their thing

 

[CoxR]

I have been 10 points low on the last two brews also I have followed the recipe and mash schedule for both the Saison and the Summer ale

 

[CoxR]

Mind you this is only the third brew I have done. But I don't know why it is low either

 

[Adr_0]

So you are basing your target on your 100% extract and the water/grain ratio? Have you looked at the datasheet for for the Best Pils? It might be a little lower than the normal 80-82%, but shouldn't be much. This means that your target gravity will be a little lower.

Anyone know what the diastatic power of the pils malt is like? If that is low then you will need more mash time.

As said above that's also a very pale mix, so likely very high on the pH. I add acidulated malt to every pale beer except pales (gypsum in this case) to bring the pH into line. IMO 66°C is middle of the road so with the right conditions you can get full conversion in an hour but will have to push that longer the further you are from that ideal pH - because the enzymes won't work as quickly. And if it's a low diastatic power malt, there aren't as many enzymes to begin with so this will also push out the time. But if it's a low extract malt (75-80%) then you aren't as far off your target as you think.

That is a very thin mash by the way... which will push the pH up further. 30:4.4 is over 6, which is far too high. Aim for about 3-4.

 

[manticle]

Perth water unadulterated?

 

[Blind Dog]

Sorry for asking the obvious, but what were the poor results? From my reading you aimed for a 4.4% beer, got a wort at 1.044 (which generally means a 4.4% beer or better in my experience, YMMV) and you're asking for advice on what went wrong when you achieved your aimed for target? I'm either stupid or missing something blindingly obvious (per SWMBO both are acceptable options)

 

[Wall]

That's a heap of good feedback, cheers.

Probably not necessarily poor results Blind Dog so much as surprise that my mash times doubled. I hit the targets I wanted but was surprised at how long I had to mash. Have been making ales with JW pale and crystals as the main ingredients up til now and getting to gravity or over in an hour mash.

It's all perth water from the tap Manticle unfortunately, not treating water yet. I've tested the water from the tap for my aquaponics and pH is very high untreated, can't recall off the top of my head but it's on the high range test so over seven (and disturbingly full of cloudy shit some days, welcome to perth)

You may have swung over my head Adr_0 think your knowledge well exceeds mine, but that's why I'm here. I know for a fact that my pH is high in the water going in, haven't got as far as understanding how that changes in the mash though. Diastatic power didn't even occur to me but that makes perfect sense, I believe wheat tends to be like rye and rely on enzymes in other malts to get a helping hand? (Apologies if I've got that A about T). That wouldn't have helped if the Best Malz was lacking to begin with.
I'm gonna have to google acidulated malt, that's not a term I understand yet. Though gypsum will lift pH? That suggests to me that my water should be brewing better with pales?
I've never considered a thin mash as related to pH or conversion because I BIAB I've just based water on the qty going into the fermenter after boil off. I usually go for higher gravity tho so it's understandable that I'm encountering this problem with less grain in the mash. Also the palest brew I've attempted since going all grain.

Reckon it's time to buy a book on brewing, sit down with one from the keg and learn the finer points.

 

[Wall]

Maybe two from the keg.....

 

[manticle]

I read it as needing to extend mash and boil to get expected results and that this is not reflective of previous brews with different malts on the same system.

 

[Blind Dog]

Fair enough, but if I had a grain bill that was 75% Pilsner malt and hit my expected OG after a 90 min boil I'd be perfectly happy. I'd be looking at my measuring equipment I I had a significant increase In gravity from a 60min mash to a 120"min mash

 

[verysupple]

Hey Wall, wheat malt generally has plenty of diastatic power to convert itself and a little extra but unmalted wheat has pretty much zero.

I noticed a fair while ago that my weissbiers (60% Bestmaltz wheat malt and 40% Bestmaltz pils) took ages to convert - like 120 - 180 min total mash time with at least 90 min at sacc. temps. I thought it was probably because the wheat malt had lower diastatic power than the ale malts I use for most other brews and because I was mashing pretty low to get a nice dry finish. But recently I've made a couple of beers with 100% Bestmaltz pils (should have plenty of diastatic power) mashed at 65 C and it still takes a lot longer to convert than the ale malt brews. I don't know what it is but it just takes longer to convert for me. Now I just account for that when deciding on my mash profile.

P.S. I treat my water and my mash pH is always between 5.3 and 5.5 so that shouldn't be an issue.

 

[MHB]

Lets get a few basic points nailed down
Pilsner malt (unless there is a problem with the malt) generally has a HIGHER diastatic power than does Ale malt (even when they are made from the same raw barley) because Pilsner isn't kilned as long so more of the enzymes remain after drying. Its paler so more suited to pale beers, it also has more SMM that converts to DMS so needs a longer (possibly) or at least more intensive boil.
Wheat malt also tends to have higher enzymes levels than does Ale malt and having no husk usually better yields on a percentage of mass basis.

Just finger counting it looks to me like you got about 78% brewhouse yield (bases on 25L at the end of the boil) which really isn't a problem, so the problem lies in the time it took to get the extract.
The first places I would be looking are
1/ at the crack
2/ at your thermometer
3/ how you are measuring your extract

Frankly for the water chemistry to be so awry that it didn't affect the yield but did affect the time it took to get the yield - well I cant think how you would do that with potable water.

As mentioned above get back to basics, get your crack sorted and for Gods sake get a decent thermometer you can trust, that will sort out about 90% of any new brewers problems.
Mark

 

[manticle]

get your crack sorted

Sounds like the suburb I work in (well the bit of it I work near anyway).

 

[Dunkelbrau]

Lets get a few basic points nailed down
Pilsner malt (unless there is a problem with the malt) generally has a HIGHER diastatic power than does Ale malt (even when they are made from the same raw barley) because Pilsner isn't kilned as long so more of the enzymes remain after drying. Its paler so more suited to pale beers, it also has more SMM that converts to DMS so needs a longer (possibly) or at least more intensive boil.
Wheat malt also tends to have higher enzymes levels than does Ale malt and having no husk usually better yields on a percentage of mass basis.

Just finger counting it looks to me like you got about 78% brewhouse yield (bases on 25L at the end of the boil) which really isn't a problem, so the problem lies in the time it took to get the extract.
The first places I would be looking are
1/ at the crack
2/ at your thermometer
3/ how you are measuring your extract

Frankly for the water chemistry to be so awry that it didn't affect the yield but did affect the time it took to get the yield - well I cant think how you would do that with potable water.

As mentioned above get back to basics, get your crack sorted and for Gods sake get a decent thermometer you can trust, that will sort out about 90% of any new brewers problems.
Mark

As I was reading the thread I was wondering why people were saying about diastatic power over the quality of the crush!

I make loads of beers with best pils, and they all convert just fine. In fact, if I'm brewing something low in diastatic power, I throw some best pils in the recipe to ensure conversion!

As said above, a good crush, proper temperature readings, and a way to read the gravity correctly (either temp correcting hydrometer or refractometer).

Do you mash full volume or sparge through the bag as its draining?

 

[verysupple]

Lets get a few basic points nailed down
Pilsner malt (unless there is a problem with the malt) generally has a HIGHER diastatic power than does Ale malt (even when they are made from the same raw barley) because Pilsner isn't kilned as long so more of the enzymes remain after drying. Its paler so more suited to pale beers, it also has more SMM that converts to DMS so needs a longer (possibly) or at least more intensive boil.
Wheat malt also tends to have higher enzymes levels than does Ale malt and having no husk usually better yields on a percentage of mass basis.

Just finger counting it looks to me like you got about 78% brewhouse yield (bases on 25L at the end of the boil) which really isn't a problem, so the problem lies in the time it took to get the extract.
The first places I would be looking are
1/ at the crack
2/ at your thermometer
3/ how you are measuring your extract

Frankly for the water chemistry to be so awry that it didn't affect the yield but did affect the time it took to get the yield - well I cant think how you would do that with potable water.

As mentioned above get back to basics, get your crack sorted and for Gods sake get a decent thermometer you can trust, that will sort out about 90% of any new brewers problems.
Mark

1/ I only mentioned diastatic power to rule it out as I stated that in all my batches there was plenty of diastatic power.

I can see why people (including me) were talking about it, though, and over looked the crush. I get my grain crushed at the LHBS. I figured they brew a lot more than me and would know how to crush it properly. In my case it may well be the crush leading to slow conversion. It just never occurred to me because I don't do it myself and my LHBS is pretty highly regarded in terms of service and advice. Infact, when my weissbiers were taking so long to convert, I asked them about the crush because I know the wheat grains are generally smaller and harder and require different settings (even though it looked like a pretty good crush to me). They told me they always check the crush and that they do mine the same way they do it when they're making a wheat beer, and that they get full conversion within a 60 min mash. After that I sort of discounted the bad crush idea. I could be wrong, though.

2/ My thermometers are high quality, calibrated and work fine. Nobody mentioned dodgy thermometers or problems hitting/maintaining temps.

3/ I measure extract using a calibrated hydrometer and either account for temperature or measure at the calibrated temperature.

I'm not sure about Wall (the OP), but I think I have the basics pretty well covered. That's why I wondered about the less likely causes. Any other ideas?

 

[1974Alby]

That is a very thin mash by the way... which will push the pH up further. 30:4.4 is over 6, which is far too high. Aim for about 3-4.

As a BIAB brewer, I generally use 36L strike water and 4.5kg - 6kg of grain in the mash...It is no doubt thin compared to other methods, but I thought this was fairly standard for BIAB?

For those of you who use acidulated malt to get pH down in pale beers, how do you know how much to add?

 

[MHB]

V/S I wasn't commenting on you or your brewing process, I was trying to give some information to help the Wall with his issue.
What I posted stands, if you can get hold of a copy of the Bestmalt Pilsner COA it will (or bloody well should) list the scarification time and it will be less than 20 minutes (or it will say Normal ~15m).

Nobody can manufacture a Pilsner malt that takes 90-120 minutes to convert and stay in business as a maltster. The only conclusion possible is that Wall has a process issue and I have already indicated the most likely solutions. The odds of it being a Malt problem rather than a Brewer problem are really pretty small.
Mark

 

[MHB]

As a BIAB brewer, I generally use 36L strike water and 4.5kg - 6kg of grain in the mash...It is no doubt thin compared to other methods, but I thought this was fairly standard for BIAB?

For those of you who use acidulated malt to get pH down in pale beers, how do you know how much to add?

1% lowers the pH by 0.1pH
M

 

[GalBrew]

On the topic of thermometers, you really need to get a lab grade mercury one to calibrate off. I had no idea how far off some of my thermometers were (especially the digital stick variety) until I got a couple of these.