Ph Testing

[65bellett]

So far I have a few All Grain brews under my belt and have not yet done a PH test on any of them. I have been doing a bit of reading about PH testing and have read that I may be able to improve my efficiency (my efficiency currently sit at about the mid 60% range) by adjusting the PH.

What is the biggest factor in the PH moving to the wrong range? If I brew the same beer using the gear and ingredients that I have previously used and previously taken a ph reading of can I just assume that the ph reading will be the same both times.

How many of you out there do a PH reading every time you brew and how important do you think it is? What gadgets do you use to measure your PH, years ago when I was at school I can remember us using Litmus paper to test PH but after a quick search on the net I have seen some really cool digital PH metres. Are these devices worth the investment?

I know this is alot of questions and I appreciate any help you can give me. If this has already been covered else where (Ihad a quick look) please drop the link in.


65 B

 

[Hutch]

G'day 65 B,

I've had a digital pH meter (I think similar to the ones sold by site sponsors) for about 6 months, and don't use it any more, now that I know my process is sound (water treatment, etc.). In fact, I find it a chore to use - takes a LONG time for the pH reading to settle, and it's also highly affected by temperature, and therfore gives unreliable results unless the wort/mash liquor has been cooled to 20deg... and this is after having meticulously calibrated it...

My advice would be to get some pH paper first, and use that to check your readings during mashing / sparging. This is a less expensive option, and you may find that it's only useful for a few brews to confirm your pH is under control.

Alternatively, there's a product called ph5.2 stabiliser (which I have never used, BTW) that many here rely on to acheive the right mash pH.
That might be worth considering too, if you find your pH too high.
Hutch.

 

[Stuster]

I use pH test papers from one of the sponsors. They're very easy to use. I don't test every batch, but I've tested a few batches to see that the water additions I've used have worked to get the mash pH right and see how the mash pH is for darker beers, lighter beers etc. The colour of the grains you use will have a huge impact on mash pH, as will the kind of water you have. Palmer's How to Brew has great info on what to do to adjust your water (residual alkalinity rather than aiming for the water of particular cities), linky. He's got a good spreadsheet there that'll help you work out additions for your water. There's also good info here.

 

[pint of lager]

There are already some very good posts here on pH.

Most people would agree though that the crush has the biggest effect on efficiency. Next is effective sparging. Look after these two points before starting on pH. If you really wish to address pH right now for peace of mind, just grab some of the 5.2 buffer from a supplier.

Water profiles and pH are necessary for the perfect brew, but they are tweaking around the edges. Get your crush, mash temp, runoff temp and sparging right before you move onto pH and water minerals.

Having a pH meter is a nice bit of bling, but it has to be maintained correctly and calibrated regularly. You need buffer solutions so you can calibrate it.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

I use a pH meter every brew.The brewing Liqour I use ranges from 5.14 to just under 8 ph so I like to know whats going on and make adjustments .The readings I take are :
Brew liquor.
Liquor after additions if needed.
Mash pH
Mash after additions if needed.
Last runnings.
Wort in the kettle pre boil.
Post boil.
Finished wort after fermentation.
All are important to me and paint a picture of my process and hope fully any answers to any problems which occur.Way to many readings to start with but a simple mash pH will tell you a lot and set the remainder of your brewing and fermentation process up for best results.If you get 5.2 to 5.4 in the mash you are going to be ok.
GB

 

[Darren]

I use a pH meter every brew.The brewing Liqour I use ranges from 5.14 to just under 8 ph so I like to know whats going on and make adjustments .GB

GB,

That is a 3 log change in pH which is quite a bit. Where are you sourcing your water? I would suggest some strips to ensure your meter is calibrated properly.

cheers

Darren

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

GB,

That is a 3 log change in pH which is quite a bit. Where are you sourcing your water? I would suggest some strips to ensure your meter is calibrated properly.

cheers

Darren

No The meter is fine just had in checked and a new probe from Perth scientific supplys. I calibrate often . The meter actually tells me if it cant calibrate or if the probe is stuffed. Its not a cheapy. pH 5.14 is natural spring water straight from the ground and around pH 7.5- 8 is my local tap supply.
GB

 

[PistolPatch]

Darren, old GB is the pH king! He's got lots of qualifications in brewing and so knows the science of brewing back to front. He writes short posts though so may have not explained things above fully. He is a true expert on this though. Any time I meet him I just try and digest a tiny bit of what he explains!!!

I currently use pH paper from Ross and a while back bought some 5.2* from Ross. The 5.2 says to use 1 tbsp per brew but as I full-volume brew I have had to use a hell of lot more than this which makes it a little too costly compared to the other acids you can use such as phosphoric.

I'm not sure if traditional brewers have to adjust the pH of their sparge water but it would be interesting to get an answer in this thread.

One other answer that I'm sure would be of help to 65b and certainly myself is...

The only time I have seen other brewers adjusting their mash pH is after around 5 to ten minutes of mashing. I've always adjusted my hot liquor to the right pH (used to aim for 5.9 as someone told me to do that!) and then added the grain after. So, do you adjust the hot liquor pH or the mash pH? If it is the mash pH, how long do you wait before adjusting???

(Just to confuse you more 65b, if the answer to the above is that you adjust your hot liquor pH, that changes with temperature!!!)

I have as many questions as you 65b so thanks for starting the thread. And, just so you don't get too worried, occassionally, and certainly in the early days, I never worried about pH and never noticed a difference in the end result. These were all with ales though. GB has to be a little more fussy as he is on a mission to brew the perfect pils.

:icon_cheers:
Pat

 

[sah]

I use a pH meter every brew.The brewing Liqour I use ranges from 5.14 to just under 8 ph so I like to know whats going on and make adjustments .

Wow GB, the water is from a different source right? Bore & town?

Scott

 

[wessmith]

Absolute waste of time and guaranteed to screw the flavour profile trying to adjust pH after mashin. And yes, adjusting sparge water pH is essential - especially if the pH is a bit high. Sparge water should be around 6 to 6.5.

Wes

 

[matti]

I am still a pretty new to the practical part of AG but I got the theory down pat pretty much.
If you know you're initial PH on the brew liqour is high there are a load of things you can do to help the mash Ph to drop.

For instance, If you are brewing ales with darker malts the pH should come down with longer mashes if the brew liqour is a high in pH.

When brewing pilsner with pale grains you can obtain acidulated Malts to assist th pH. Or just add that 5.2...
I have used citric acid in partials but wouldn't recommend it in AG.

I've got pH-strips from Ross as my own ph meter died in the aarse and work wouldn't let me use theirs.

If you are comfortable getting the mash pH right it could be worth looking into adjusting the sparging Liqour.
The pH rises with temperature and sparging with "caustic solution" could spoil any run off.

Just my 2cents worth

Matti

some one got in b4 me hehehe
Had to edit the spelling woeful initial attempt.

 

[goatherder]

What makes you say that Wes? I adjust after mashin where necessary and find it a fairly simple and trouble free process.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

What makes you say that Wes? I adjust after mashin where necessary and find it a fairly simple and trouble free process.

I know of Brewers that will adjust at the kettle to provide a premium enviroment (pH ) for the yeast.
GB

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Wow GB, the water is from a different source right? Bore & town?

Scott

Yes the Spring water comes from 40 km away and I do a special trip for it. The rest of our tap water comes from the ground (Bores) as well Via the WA Government treatment plant but is not spring water.
GB

 

[PistolPatch]

Alright GB, it's time for you to write a bit more than 2 sentences. There are a few of us here that need some detailed (but not too detailed) education!

I mean I only wrote 3 posts above and I'm more confused than ever! What chance does 65b have!!!

So, GB, can you write us newer pH AGrs a guide to how as we should go about adjusting our pH? Just assume we are all brewing an APA. I think that will give us new pH guys a starting point. So far (I think), no one has given 65B even the basics.

Staying tuned and hi to wes, matti and goatherder.


Pat

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Alright GB, it's time for you to write a bit more than 2 sentences. There are a few of us here that need some detailed (but not too detailed) education!

I mean I only wrote 3 posts above and I'm more confused than ever! What chance does 65b have!!!

So, GB, can you write us newer pH AGrs a guide to how as we should go about adjusting our pH? Just assume we are all brewing an APA. I think that will give us new pH guys a starting point. So far (I think), no one has given 65B even the basics.

Staying tuned and hi to wes, matti and goatherder.


Pat

Will do but Top Gear is on TV now. Later.
GB

 

[PistolPatch]

:angry:

On the plus side though, Top Gear only goes for an hour...



Thanks Mr Neville from 65b, myself and all the others that I'm sure are confused. I'm out of here now but have told myself that I am going to wake up to a top post in the morning that answers all my above questions* :super:

No pressure though Nev

Please keep it basic for us new pHers though. I'm sure all of us would be wrapped with just a starting point (*see above questions of mine.) Hear 65b and all of us newbee's cry for practical help!!)

Thanks in advance master from us grasshoppers!

Pat

 

[Screwtop]

There are already some very good posts here on pH.

Most people would agree though that the crush has the biggest effect on efficiency. Next is effective sparging. Look after these two points before starting on pH. If you really wish to address pH right now for peace of mind, just grab some of the 5.2 buffer from a supplier.

Water profiles and pH are necessary for the perfect brew, but they are tweaking around the edges. Get your crush, mash temp, runoff temp and sparging right before you move onto pH and water minerals.

Having a pH meter is a nice bit of bling, but it has to be maintained correctly and calibrated regularly. You need buffer solutions so you can calibrate it.

65 bellett,

There are some pretty heavy posts above and planned, for you to digest. Since you are a newb might I suggest you follow POL's post AT THIS STAGE of your brewing experience, come back later and tweak based upon what the guru's have to offer here.

From experience, the greatest increase in efficiency came from 1. Increasing boil time to 90 min which required more water (more sparging of the grains). 2. Correct sparge water temp (hot enough to maintain the grainbed temp at 76C odd) during sparging. 3. Continuous or fly sparging which is just so simple. I used to average 65% eff and blamed mash tun and cush, was using a Marga Mill so visited Tidal Pete to have my grain crushed on his Crankandstein, though it was a fine cush there was little improvemet. Then tried playing with mash tun and manifold design, after changing from cooler to SS mash tun and then from braid to copper slotted manifold and then to PVC and finally to false bottom with little variation I was advised by Ross to do a 90 min boil. The extra sparge water required (pre boil volume) for the longer boil increased efficiency to 75% Started then to look at my water volumes and temps, that was the secret. All of a sudden I was achiveing 75% 80%. Had always adusted the PH of my total brewing water to PH 6.0 prior to heating. Changed to adusting my mash PH using citric acid from the supermarket cooking aisle and using my digital PH meter. Trouble was the sample had to be cooled and by that time the mash had been underway for 20min and much of the conversion had taken place by the time I had a reading. I now use 5.2 and generally achieve between 83% and 88% efficiency.

Hope this helps with your brewing experimentation.

Screwy

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

So far I have a few All Grain brews under my belt and have not yet done a PH test on any of them. I have been doing a bit of reading about PH testing and have read that I may be able to improve my efficiency (my efficiency currently sit at about the mid 60% range) by adjusting the PH.

What is the biggest factor in the PH moving to the wrong range?

65 B

65 B and Pat
What knowledge I have on the matter I will try to explain in a easy way although its not and easy subject to write about.
Basic overview of why to know your pH levels.I will leave out factors of grain crush and lautering techniques.Although lautering is affected by pH to a large degree.
So why do we mash? To convert the starch in the crushed malt to fermentable sugars.So to achieve the best possible out come in mashing there fore better efficiency % of extract you need to have 2 main factors : 1 the right temperatures and 2 the right pH.
Now the "Things" which break down these starchs to sugars are enzymes and these enzymes are very happy to work at certain temps and ph.The different enzymes have different optimal pH's but for pratical purposes it is excepted that between 5.0-5.4 pH is good so if you aim for 5.2 ph you are right there.I will expect that you know the right mashing temps and these will change with different styles of beer. Before I get to how to adjust pH I will give you some facts and figures.These figures are not of the top of my head but are adapted from Hind.1950
Amylase Activity at 60C
PH Activity% 0f Amylase (the enzyme "thing")
4.8----- 98
5.0----- 99
5.2 ------ 100
5.4----- 95
5.8 ---- 85
6.2 ----- 65

As you can see being a bit more acidic is much better than being more base.A lot of potential conversion of starch is lost by going much past 5.4 pH in the base direction.These figures may not seem to be great deal to home brewers but this means real time and money in the brewing businesss.
So to adjust pH I use Weyermann Acidulated malt which has a pH of 3.4 -3.6 or food grade 80% Lactic acid both being basically the same but the acidulated malt is ok with the German purity laws so thats my personal first choice.With the acid malt I find you need between 2 -5 % of total grain bill with Pilsner type beers with my tap water and none with darker more acidic malts such as roasts and chocs.I dont usually need to acidify my sparge water as I find I dont get to over 5.6 pH during lautering.Going any higher than mid 5 pH during fun off's and you start to run the risk of extracting harsh husk phenols which other than tasting like crap also add to beer staling and hazes.Higher sparge temps are also a compounding factor here(excess of 77C).Back to lautering and pH's .If you are trying to achieve the best possible run off in your lauter tun you need to pay attention to break down of betaglucans (temp range 45-55) which are a gummy and can cause slow run offs and stuck sparges.These are also pH controlled with an optimun around 5.6 pH.If every thing goes well you should end up with a cooled wort of 5.0- 5.2 ph which will set you up for a good fermentation and good attenuations.Keeping acurate records of all pH's during brewing and fermentation is a good tool to help solve those little brewing mystries. So yes do your pH readings be by meter or strips.Hope this clears some of it up and doesnt leave you with to many unwanted concerns.It makes it more interesting to me and more of a pain for others.
GB

 

[matti]

Luvely Post GB.
I was still milling over how you'd explain it in one simple post, and there you go.
That's how!
I hope PP has his head screwed on when he wakes up.
ooops.... hi PP.
If you can get this right you'll beer will be clear again.

In BIAB you'll only have to adjust the water in the kettle once.
I wonder though if it is possible to add acidulated malt to the bag in BIAB?
I can't see why not.