Ph Testing

[newguy]

GB's post should be archived somewhere as a great "why" regarding mash pH. Great post. I'll add that according to Noonan in New Brewing Lager Beer that alpha amylase apparently works best at a pH of 5.7, and beta amylase at 5.2.

Regarding meters vs strips, I started with strips and then bought a meter. The meter is nice, but it's a pain in the arse to calibrate, it takes forever for a reading to stabilise, and the probe will eventually need replacement. You also need to have calibrated buffer solutions to calibrate the thing. I no longer use either, as I have my system "dialed in." Get the paper strips and use those. More bang for your buck.

I personally acidify all my brewing water with 1ml 88% lactic acid per every 10l brewing water.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Luvely Post GB.
I was still milling over how you'd explain it in one simple post, and there you go.
That's how!
I hope PP has his head screwed on when he wakes up.
ooops.... hi PP.
If you can get this right you'll beer will be clear again.

In BIAB you'll only have to adjust the water in the kettle once.
I wonder though if it is possible to add acidulated malt to the bag in BIAB?
I can't see why not.

In the bag is not a problem.You can work it all out on paper before hand but it is certainly not some thing that can be explained simlpy here or I would do.Best approach is to record your liquor pH before you start mashing and say add 3% (acid malt) of the grain bill ( Pale beer styles) in the milling. Give this a go and record your mash pH. A bit of trial and error ! I find it can take up to 5% some times.To get the best results its worth trying having a little more acid malt put to one side which has been soaked in H20 ( a sour mash) and adding this to adjust pH at a early stage of mashing.Like I said better to be on the more Acid side of 5.2 pH.
GB

 

[sah]

Thanks for the info GB.

A question for you regular users of lactic acid. Where do you get it and how much do you pay? I bought a small bottle (30 ml) of it from the local chemist recently and they charged be a fortune, $18 or similar.

thanks,
Scott

 

[newguy]

I use lactic acid from LD Carlson. 120ml jar costs around $6 here. $18 for 30ml sure sounds like robbery. Check homebrew stores as I get mine from one. If you can't easily find lactic acid, phosphoric acid is actually preferable as it has less of a flavour than lactic. There's always the 5.2 stuff that I've seen people mention too. Don't feel that you have to use lactic acid, just use whatever you can easily get. Be careful about citric acid as I'd be leery about it adding a detectable taste.

 

[Stuster]

Interesting post, GB. I have always used salt additions instead of acid/acid malt. That's partly because here in Sydney the water is very soft and a bit more calcium is optimal. Not saying that this is better or worse than your way, just to point out that there are different ways to skin this particular cat.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Interesting post, GB. I have always used salt additions instead of acid/acid malt. That's partly because here in Sydney the water is very soft and a bit more calcium is optimal. Not saying that this is better or worse than your way, just to point out that there are different ways to skin this particular cat.

Yes you can use salts but you will find that you would need a hell of a lot more salts , with the risk of affecting taste , to achieve the same pH adjustments that can be achieved with minute amounts of acids.Of course this amount of salts depends on what brewing liquor you have to start with.Lactic acid is a weak acid so it takes a little more than some of the stronger acids but I dont have the worry of altering the flavour profile.I just hate any chalky tastes in my Pilsners.My post was more of a "Why I do iT" and just a little of how I do it. As long as you are looking at pH,s in brewing your on the right track.
GB

 

[floppinab]

For those wanting to know a bit more about the detailed chemisty the below is a very good 3 pager :

http://www.ibd.org.uk/igbsite/business/tra...m.%20August.pdf

 

[Stuster]

Yes you can use salts but you will find that you would need a hell of a lot more salts

Not that much here as the water is soft. For a 20L batch, I usually only 2-3g of various chemicals. But it wouldn't work so well with harder water, when you'll start getting taste effects as you say. I've got some acid malt and I'll be giving it a go in some beers this year.

 

[LethalCorpse]

how much does phosphoric acid used as a sanitiser on the HLT and MLT reduce the pH?

 

[newguy]

how much does phosphoric acid used as a sanitiser on the HLT and MLT reduce the pH?

Do you mean no-rinse sanitisers? To kill most bacteria, the pH has to be below ~2.1, so I'm guessing that a properly mixed no-rinse sanitiser solution should be at a pH of 2 or less.

 

[sah]

how much does phosphoric acid used as a sanitiser on the HLT and MLT reduce the pH?

LC, Are you inferring that you sanitise your HLT and MLT? What for?

regards,
Scott

 

[LethalCorpse]

Well, neither of them are built yet, but I imagine that when they are I'll sanitise them anyway. I know the wrt's going to be boiled afterwards anyway, and that there are probably worse beasties on the grain than in the vessels. But how much does no-rinse cost? I'm a lot happier knowing that everything I use is clean to start with. Maybe there are certain kinds of mould spores living in my garage that would be quite happy at mash temps, and put nasty by-products in the beer before it gets to the kettle. Probably not, but I freely admit I don't know enough about microbiology to bother saving ten cents worth of phos acid.

Plus, if the acid can be of assistance in dropping the pH to a better level for the enzyme activity, then it's one less ingredient to keep in stock.
EDIT: time to get out the old chemistry textbooks to calculate the impact of a few mLs of pH 2 acid on the overall pH of 45L of liquor.

 

[newguy]

You don't need to sanitise anything that comes into contact with your ingredients prior to the boil. If you're worried about something starting to grow in your mash, 1) mashout temperatures will probably kill it, and 2) if something does start to grow in your mash, you're taking way too long.

As long as your sanitiser doesn't have extra things in it, things that will taste bad or have unforeseen adverse effects on your beer, you can use it to acidify your water.

Edit: perhaps an online pH calculator will work? Link.

 

[Darren]

Just remember when using phosphoric or lactic acid that it is easy to over do it. I have tasted some HB where too much phosphoric acid had been added.
It made your teeth tingle and bubble away. It wasn't obvious either. Only reason I noticed it was because I had acid in my mouth previously back in the days when mouth pipetting was still ok 8). The three or four other brewers thought it was OK (and it did taste good). The brewer of the beer told us how much acid was added and it was in the order of ten times that which was required.

I also suspect that continual addition of phosphoric acid to beer will have negative effects on your teeth and gut (above that caused by the beer alone)

cheers

Darren

 

[LethalCorpse]

So, nothing wrong with phosphoric acid for lowering pH, but don't go too far - ie, measure and balance the pH, rather than chucking a bunch of H+ ions in there and hoping

no need to sanitise pre-boil equipment (which I already knew), but there's no sense in mashing in something which may contain botulism etc. I'm not concerned here about things growing in my mash, I'm concerned about things which have already grown in my HLT or MLT eating my sugar and shitting in my wrt. Only extremely mildly so, but enough to justify the miniscule amount of sanitiser. My eventual plan is to run boiling water through the entire system (HLT to bottles/kegs) before starting a brew.

yes, the botulism was a pisstake

 

[PistolPatch]

Haven't had time to read any above posts. (Will do on the weekend.)

It ended up that I 'interviewed.' GB tonight. I even took detailed notes!

After a few hours on the phone, giving penetrating questions , I now see that pH is not as easy a subject as it is made out to be.

Grrrr!

I did however learn tonight a heap of (way too much) interesting stuff. One of these things is why generic advice on pH is not easy or even possibly practical to give. Now I understand this!

Give me a few days guys and I will try and write what I have learned tonight. It's pretty interesting stuff!

 

[newguy]

no need to sanitise pre-boil equipment (which I already knew), but there's no sense in mashing in something which may contain botulism etc. I'm not concerned here about things growing in my mash, I'm concerned about things which have already grown in my HLT or MLT eating my sugar and shitting in my wrt. Only extremely mildly so, but enough to justify the miniscule amount of sanitiser. My eventual plan is to run boiling water through the entire system (HLT to bottles/kegs) before starting a brew.

yes, the botulism was a pisstake

Just make sure your vessels are clean. If they're clean enough to eat out of or cook in, they're clean enough to brew. All you have to do is carefully hose them out at the end of your brew day and store them upside down, with all valves open, to dry. Unless you find a wasp's nest or a spider web inside them, just give them another quick hosing and they're ready for use.

 

[PistolPatch]

GB Interview - Part 1

Think I'll write down what I learned from GB last night in a couple of parts....

The first thing I learned is that you can't give another brewer specifics on pH. Take two brewers - one in Adelaide and one in Sydney. Let's assume they both have a tap water pH of 7.0. I would have assumed that both could add identical mls of acid (or whatever) to their mash water and end up with an identical mash pH. This is not the case.

Apparently the nature of the water (hardness etc) has a big effect. This is the reason why GB emphasised trial and error in his post above.

(Excellent post by the way GB - really makes sense, doubly so after last night's lesson.)

:icon_cheers:

 

[therook]

GB Interview - Part 1

Think I'll write down what I learned from GB last night in a couple of parts....

The first thing I learned is that you can't give another brewer specifics on pH. Take two brewers - one in Adelaide and one in Sydney. Let's assume they both have a tap water pH of 7.0. I would have assumed that both could add identical mls of acid (or whatever) to their mash water and end up with an identical mash pH. This is not the case.

Apparently the nature of the water (hardness etc) has a big effect. This is the reason why GB emphasised trial and error in his post above.

(Excellent post by the way GB - really makes sense, doubly so after last night's lesson.)

:icon_cheers:

Your kidding me Pistol, thats all there is for part 1 :lol:

This is a great thread something i have been trying to get my head around for ages, i don't know if i'm any the wiser but hopefully i'll get something out of it.

Rook

 

[ozpowell]

GB Interview - Part 1

Think I'll write down what I learned from GB last night in a couple of parts....

The first thing I learned is that you can't give another brewer specifics on pH. Take two brewers - one in Adelaide and one in Sydney. Let's assume they both have a tap water pH of 7.0. I would have assumed that both could add identical mls of acid (or whatever) to their mash water and end up with an identical mash pH. This is not the case.

Apparently the nature of the water (hardness etc) has a big effect. This is the reason why GB emphasised trial and error in his post above.

(Excellent post by the way GB - really makes sense, doubly so after last night's lesson.)

:icon_cheers:

The one time I expected a lengthy post from you PP, and you give us a teaser :lol: Looking forward to parts 2 through 50

Cheers,
Michael.