No Rinse Sterilizer = Sodium Percarbonate, Napisan = Sodium Percarbona

[DarrenTheDrunk]

for stubborn stains i use caustic soda , about 40 grams of powder to a 30 litre fermenter filled to the brim , brings it up like brand new again....

I have plenty of this. Is it good to clean everything including bottles. I would like to try and avoid having to scrub bottles if I can as I brew a fair amount at a time. Also, I simply fill my fermenter to the absolute top with water, leave to soak outside over night or for a few hours and it comes up a treat. BUT..I am still very new at this game

 

[Killer Brew]

Caustic is a great cleaner for any organic residue, so yes. Just ensure you rinse thoroughly and personally I would still use a no-rinse sanitiser afterwards.

With bottles my routine is to make sure I triple rinse as soon as I pour the last glass. Then drain and store top down until needed. Then just a squirt of no-rinse sanitiser shortly before filling.

 

[PhilipB]

I can't bear to think of using a product such as Napisan...

I use Starsan 1.6ml in a litre of water to sanitize. My 1 litre bottle will last a long time.

 

[yankinoz]

Where is iodophor available to purchase?

Pok

Besides HB suppliers, chemists. They call it by the brand name Betadine and sell it quite cheaply in bottles of 200 ml or more. The concentration is slightly different from what is sold in HB shops.

Iodophor is very effective. I have seen it used to sterilize medical implements under field conditions, but in brewing sanitizing is a more realistic goal. No-rinse? Mostly yes (Betadine is used in mouthwashes) except some people claim they have low taste thresholds for it and pick up a taste. I only detected a taste after I forgot to drain a fermenter before filling with wort. The taste was slight and went away during conditioning.

The problem with iodophor sanitisers is stability. Once diluted they degrade quickly under bright light and slowly in the dark. Chlorine reacts with it, and so does dissolved organic matter (which varies greatly among water supplies, but is fairly high where I live).

I use Betadine with carbon-filtered water and use the desired amber colour as a guide -- do an image search. Or I use a Kiwi-made no-rinse phosphoric acid sanitiser. The choice depends on circumstances, but I always use phosphoric at bottling.

 

[sp0rk]

Besides HB suppliers, chemists. They call it by the brand name Betadine and sell it quite cheaply in bottles of 200 ml or more. The concentration is slightly different from what is sold in HB shops.

I don't think Pok has been around in a while (also he's a professional brewer/winemaker now)
I really should bug him for a job some time...

 

[Jaded and Bitter]

Gee necro thread...

With bottles my routine is to make sure I triple rinse as soon as I pour the last glass. Then drain and store top down until needed. Then just a squirt of no-rinse sanitiser shortly before filling.

This used to work for me when I lived in Adelaide. After moving to the East Coast I kept getting wild yeast and bottle bombs. The wild yeast/bacteria whatever left a very small biofilm around the neck of the bottles, usually not visible through the brown bottles.

Cleaning and sterilising all the bottles with sodium hypochlorite domestic bleach and bottling in a clean kitchen cured the problem.

I think the reason why my more lax method worked in SA was because the dry air wasn't full of critters like it is here.

 

[Jaded and Bitter]

I can't bear to think of using a product such as Napisan...

I use Starsan 1.6ml in a litre of water to sanitize. My 1 litre bottle will last a long time.

Your using the Starsan after you have cleaned right?

PhilipB I'm sure you actaully are. But for any newbs reading this its worth restating.

Many experienced brewers clean first with sodium percarbonate or generic napisan. This makes sure everything is actually clean.

Then a no rinse such as Starsan is used before brewing once the surface is completely clean.

By completely clean I don't mean hosed out and scrubbed with the old dish sponge, then swished out with some hot water so it looks clean by the outdoor light by your back door at 9pm at night after three or four pints, I mean after a good soak and scrub with a cleaner which dissolves all organic residues, beer stone etc.

If the surface isn't completely clean Starsan wont save you.

 

[MHB]

Besides HB suppliers, chemists. They call it by the brand name Betadine and sell it quite cheaply in bottles of 200 ml or more. The concentration is slightly different from what is sold in HB shops.

Iodophor is very effective. I have seen it used to sterilize medical implements under field conditions, but in brewing sanitizing is a more realistic goal. No-rinse? Mostly yes (Betadine is used in mouthwashes) except some people claim they have low taste thresholds for it and pick up a taste. I only detected a taste after I forgot to drain a fermenter before filling with wort. The taste was slight and went away during conditioning.

The problem with iodophor sanitisers is stability. Once diluted they degrade quickly under bright light and slowly in the dark. Chlorine reacts with it, and so does dissolved organic matter (which varies greatly among water supplies, but is fairly high where I live).

I use Betadine with carbon-filtered water and use the desired amber colour as a guide -- do an image search. Or I use a Kiwi-made no-rinse phosphoric acid sanitiser. The choice depends on circumstances, but I always use phosphoric at bottling.

There is a big difference between Betadine and Iodophor, (clue in the name) its the Phosphoric acid, not something recommended for applying to the skin or gargling, but very good for brewing.
We all know about Acid Sanitisers, the acid will also remove beer stone and some biofilms and the Iodine is a very effective steriliser.
Mark

 

[Bribie G]

Getting back to basics, Sodium Percarbonate is simpy Washing soda with an extra oxygen atom attached.
When it comes into contact with organic material - especially microorganisms - it uses the oxygen to zap it.
It froths mightily. Every bubble is a bug being zapped.

It will bring a stained fermenter, an old fashioned cloth nappy or a pair of white volleys back to pristine overnight.

THEN
you sanitise with something like Starsan,

AFTER
you have washed out the washing soda residue that tastes pretty bad.

 

[drsmurto]

Oxygen can't react with organic molecules. It's spin forbidden.

 

[Jaded and Bitter]

Getting back to basics, Sodium Percarbonate is simpy Washing soda with an extra oxygen atom attached.
When it comes into contact with organic material - especially microorganisms - it uses the oxygen to zap it.
It froths mightily. Every bubble is a bug being zapped.

It will bring a stained fermenter, an old fashioned cloth nappy or a pair of white volleys back to pristine overnight.

THEN
you sanitise with something like Starsan,

AFTER
you have washed out the washing soda residue that tastes pretty bad.

Further to Bribie G's excellent advice I absolutely recommend soaking a plastic fermenter filled with water (to the brim) and your choice of sodium percarbonate after every brew!

Not just when it starts to look nasty after several brews.

While your at it pull out the lids rubber seal and chuck that in and screw the lid on so the bottom gets a soak too.

When your done soaking get a scourer sponge and clean the outside of the fermenter and lid with the solution. Drain the solution but keep some in the bottom of the fermenter, pull the tap (pull it apart if possible or if not turn it to open) take off the rubber seal and chuck them in the solution, then clean around the tap thread with the solution.

Then rinse it all off with tap water.

And as Bribie said then use Starsan (or Iodophor).

The above is the minimum level I will go to when cleaning and sanitising a plastic fermenter.

I rest my case -_-

 

[Jaded and Bitter]

Oxygen can't react with organic molecules. It's spin forbidden.

Its the bitey type of oxygen

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I can't bear to think of using a product such as Napisan...

I use Starsan 1.6ml in a litre of water to sanitize. My 1 litre bottle will last a long time.

Why.... Napisan is an awsome cleaner, and it also santises as well

Your doing it wrong if you just rely on Star-San ( as so many do )

 

[rhino86]

Wouldn't a steam nozzle take off the ring and santisize most of the fermenter in seconds, i wonder and will experiment. Then risne with water, then swirl at least three percent hydrogen peroixde, then dry.
Look up food grade 35 per cent hydrogen peroixde on ebay. Should be around $30.

 

[Jaded and Bitter]

Wouldn't a steam nozzle take off the ring and santisize most of the fermenter in seconds, i wonder and will experiment. Then risne with water, then swirl at least three percent hydrogen peroixde, then dry.
Look up food grade 35 per cent hydrogen peroixde on ebay. Should be around $30.

Steam and 35% hydrogen peroxide sounds like a dangerous way to just avoid using sodium percarbonate.

Your 3% hydrogen peroxide sounds like an alternative to Starsan, Iodophur etc.

I imagine the amount of steam required to give the same results as sodium percarbonate would be pretty intense and maybe melt a plastic fermenter.

Or are you talking about one of those TV domestic steamer cleaner thingies? They look like they put out a weak wet steam. I wouldn't trust it for the level of hygiene I aim for (and you should too).

When cleaning your fermenter your not just trying to remove the yeast kreusen ring, you need to clean the entire fermenter.

Filling with water and adding some sodium percarbonate and leaving it to soak is such an easy way to achieve this I cannot work out why so many newbs are seemingly so stubborn to avoid it.

It really is home brewing 101.

So if your reading this and havn't already tried next time your at Coles/Woolies/IGA/Aldi whatever do yourself a huge favour and pick up a container of no name generic napisan for like $2.

After your next/latest rinse out the yeast cake and brew fill your fermenter with water and a couple cap fulls of the stuff. Hell chuck in your hoses and anything else which which will fit in (except your dirty washing and dishes). Clean the lid, seal, tap, outside fermenter too with the solution (inc. around the tap). Most brewers leave overnight but a few hours will probably do. Rinse with tap water and your done, clean as a whistle.

If I want to use it again straight away I'll use sodium hyperchlorite instead (domestic cleaner) to get faster results.

Next brew day hit it with Starsan or Iodophur and your good to go.

 

[drsmurto]

Sodium percarbonate produces hydrogen peroxide. Not sure why buying hydrogen peroxide is bad given the cleaning/sanitation is the same.

I personally prefer a 2:1 mix of sodium percarbonate:sodium metalsilicate for cleaning and a no rinse sanitiser like starsan for sanitising.

The cleaning mix cost $8.07 for 5kg in a recent bulk buy i organised so a smegload cheaper than even homebrand napisan and this is pure.

 

[Mr B]

Anyone know how long percarbonate/meta mix cleans for? I.e if you have a tub of it with bottles etc in it?

I assume that it may degrade according to the organics it reacts with, and also must have a stability period where it ceases to be effective.

I soak bottles for weeks in a tub (put them in as I go), and it eventually gets green algae growing (but I do them again in a clean solution - well, I have, but I'm just about over bottling the leftover few l in a batch).

 

[barls]

id say 20 minutes tops. its a one short reaction. what your left with its a mild base from memory but i can't remember which one.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

That's a real "piece of string" question; It's dependent on concentration and the presence of organic soils and other factors.

The percarbonate breaks down very quickly to peroxide and carbonate (that's how it works). Peroxide solutions in alkaline conditions* are unstable and the stability depends on concentration. If you use a solution around 1% percarbonate, that yields around 0.3% peroxide which is conveniently close to 0.1M.

As near as I can workout, at that concentration the degradation rate is around 0.2 / hour at 15 oC in the absence of catalysts eg you'd lose around 20% activity in an hour.

In the presence of catalysts all bets are off: most organisms contain an enzyme called catalase which vastly increases the degradation rate (this includes humans: put a bit of peroxide or percarbonate solution on a drop of blood and watch what happens).

The easy answer is to watch for the bubbles caused by the degradation of the peroxide: if it isn't bubbling it isn't working, that's good enough for government work.


* The breakdown of the percarbonate produces a carbonate solution with a pH around 10 -11, hence alkaline conditions.

 

[drsmurto]

That's a real "piece of string" question; It's dependent on concentration and the presence of organic soils and other factors.

The percarbonate breaks down very quickly to peroxide and carbonate (that's how it works). Peroxide solutions in alkaline conditions* are unstable and the stability depends on concentration. If you use a solution around 1% percarbonate, that yields around 0.3% peroxide which is conveniently close to 0.1M.

As near as I can workout, at that concentration the degradation rate is around 0.2 / hour at 15 oC in the absence of catalysts eg you'd lose around 20% activity in an hour.

In the presence of catalysts all bets are off: most organisms contain an enzyme called catalase which vastly increases the degradation rate (this includes humans: put a bit of peroxide or percarbonate solution on a drop of blood and watch what happens).

The easy answer is to watch for the bubbles caused by the degradation of the peroxide: if it isn't bubbling it isn't working, that's good enough for government work.


* The breakdown of the percarbonate produces a carbonate solution with a pH around 10 -11, hence alkaline conditions.

Another thing to think of is the iron (and copper) content that powers the Fenton Reaction.