No Chill In Stock Pot

[the_yobbo]

Disclaimer: I understand that no chilling in a stockpot is not the 'standard' procedure and theoretically has potential HSA and infection risks that would otherwise be avoided if transferred into a cube.

After reading the thread on no-chilling in the fermenter (http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...=46352&st=0), I discovered that no-chilling in the kettle is an option. With my current gear and my lack of coordination regarding to syphoning, I beleive this may work for me for now.

I have a standard 20L SS stockpot from Big W with the glass lid therefore isn't air tight. In practice will the risk of infection be high? Would wrapping clingwrap over the glass lid (after flame out) reduce the risk of infection? If the pot is near 100 degrees, will the clingwrap melt or release any nasties if applied straight way?

How big an issue is HSA when no chilling in the kettle/stock pot? Has anyone experienced it as an issue when No-chilling in the kettle? I would assume it's gotta be better than my last brew when I poured the wort into the fermenter via a strainer when it was still +50 degrees.

When the brew cools, I assume there'll be sediment/trub/break material sitting on the bottom of the pot. If I'm pouring from pot to fermenter through a strainer, am I best to stop pouring when sedment starts coming with it (just like pouring a beer off the sediment), or happily tip it all in and the strainer will take care of it all?
Will whirlfloc/irish moss make the sediment settle better making it easier to pour out clearer beer? I assume whirlpooling is pointless if pouring from the stockpot.

 

[Aus_Rider_22]

When the brew cools, I assume there'll be sediment/trub/break material sitting on the bottom of the pot. If I'm pouring from pot to fermenter through a strainer, am I best to stop pouring when sedment starts coming with it (just like pouring a beer off the sediment), or happily tip it all in and the strainer will take care of it all?

I go from pot to fermenter through a simple strainer and have wondered this as well. I always let the strainer catch the hop material etc. Can't bring myself to not tip in the last bit, seems like a waste when I presume it all falls out of suspension when fermentation stops and I've fined it with gelatine. :unsure:

 

[Siborg]

Another one... Nick? Bum? Haysie?

*ducks for cover*

 

[hazard]

Would wrapping clingwrap over the glass lid (after flame out) reduce the risk of infection? If the pot is near 100 degrees, will the clingwrap melt or release any nasties if applied straight way?

When the brew cools, I assume there'll be sediment/trub/break material sitting on the bottom of the pot. If I'm pouring from pot to fermenter through a strainer, am I best to stop pouring when sedment starts coming with it (just like pouring a beer off the sediment), or happily tip it all in and the strainer will take care of it all?
Will whirlfloc/irish moss make the sediment settle better making it easier to pour out clearer beer? I assume whirlpooling is pointless if pouring from the stockpot.

I use alu foil to seal the lid when I (ocassionally) kettle chill. Doesn't melt at boiling temp.

I have also poured from the pot into the fermenter through a strainer. 2 beers made this way have scored places, at Vic Brew Championships and at Beer Fest, so I reckon it doesn't have a big negative influence on the final product.

 

[aaronpetersen]

Disclaimer: I understand that no chilling in a stockpot is not the 'standard' procedure and theoretically has potential HSA and infection risks that would otherwise be avoided if transferred into a cube.

After reading the thread on no-chilling in the fermenter (http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...=46352&st=0), I discovered that no-chilling in the kettle is an option. With my current gear and my lack of coordination regarding to syphoning, I beleive this may work for me for now.

I have a standard 20L SS stockpot from Big W with the glass lid therefore isn't air tight. In practice will the risk of infection be high? Would wrapping clingwrap over the glass lid (after flame out) reduce the risk of infection? If the pot is near 100 degrees, will the clingwrap melt or release any nasties if applied straight way?

How big an issue is HSA when no chilling in the kettle/stock pot? Has anyone experienced it as an issue when No-chilling in the kettle? I would assume it's gotta be better than my last brew when I poured the wort into the fermenter via a strainer when it was still +50 degrees.

When the brew cools, I assume there'll be sediment/trub/break material sitting on the bottom of the pot. If I'm pouring from pot to fermenter through a strainer, am I best to stop pouring when sedment starts coming with it (just like pouring a beer off the sediment), or happily tip it all in and the strainer will take care of it all?
Will whirlfloc/irish moss make the sediment settle better making it easier to pour out clearer beer? I assume whirlpooling is pointless if pouring from the stockpot.

I do exactly what you are suggesting and haven't had any problems yet.
Caveat: I've only done 5 AG's with no-chilling in the kettle.

 

[Nick JD]

While risking the wrath of the AHB Illuminati, I'll try to offer some insights, advantages and disadvantages into the practice of kettle chilling.

Some advantages:

1.) Ease.

2.) You get to leave both the cold and hot break behind.

3.) No chance of HSA.

4.) One less thing to clean.


Some disadvantages:

1.) Cooling on the hot break could be detrimental to flavour.

2.) It's slow.

3.) You MUST pitch in a ~5 hour window the next day.

It'd be good for other people who have tried it and/or practice it regularly to add other things to these lists.

The risk of infection is next to zero - I would say that there would be as much risk of infection (I've read all the posts of people's swelling cubes) as no-chilling in a closed container if common sense prevails. Gladwraping the lid is something I always do - it doesn't melt.

When pouring into the fermenter you'll see the cold break first and can stop there. I often let a bit of the cold break into the fermenter, and leave all the hot break behind. You lose < 1L of wort this way. Whirlfloc is always good no matter what your techniques.

The next day it's a matter of placing your hand on the side of the kettle and feeling the temperature. You'll know when it's reached ambient temperature. I have never left it past about 5 hours after reaching ambient and have never had an infection this way - leave it longer at your own peril.

Contain your hops in the boil and remove them before gladwrapping the top and lidding it. Place the kettle on a large concrete surface to help it cool quicker.

I have no-chilled and kettle chilled extensively and have not noticed any detrimental flavours through cooling with the hot break material.

I hope we can keep this thread civil.

 

[bum]

Not trying to stir the pot (which is also good advice with this method) but how do you guys who do this stop air getting sucked back in to the essentially unsealed vessel as the wort cools and contracts? Sure, you're not talking about a lot of air on a small boil but it is less insignificant for full sized singles/doubles and either way you don't need there to be a heap of wild yeast/bugs to cause a problem. Yes, what I'm talking about requires a very definite set of circumstances but they are circumstances that are mostly out of our control, right?

 

[bullfrog]

I do something similar to this and I've (don't laugh, this is serious business here) cello-taped over the wee steam hole in the lid of my Big W stock-pot. If I'm going to be leaving overnight to pitch the next day, I just throw the pot on the garage floor, otherwise she goes in one of my exponentially increasing number of fridges for a few hours to be pitched into quick-smart.

OFF TOPIC WARNING: Been meaning to ask -- why all the recent animosity towards NickJD? I've found the bloke vastly helpful!

 

[bum]

why all the recent animosity towards NickJD?

It is neither worth it nor appropriate to get into this but I'm sure Nick himself will tell you this is not recent.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I think Nick's summation is around about correct. I disagree with him about therembeing no chance of HSA, IMHO you are certainly going to get a modicum of HSA by no-chilling in your kettle. But whether that's enough to significantly effect your beer??? Who knows, besides, if you haven't done it any other way, you won't notice the difference even if it is there.

My opinion is that no-chill in the kettle is a sub optimal technique, and that you will increase the likelihood of consistantly making the beer you want to make by moving towards the more optimal methods. BUT.... That doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it for now. If you think that this is a technique that's within your gear and ability range - then use it! As you build experience, skill and inevitably buy more brewing gear, then its time to consider a different method.

Still, in a 20l stock pot, I would rather see you actually chill in your kettle than no-chill in there. Bung it in a bathtub full of cold wate and cool it down. Just a different option for you to consider. But you'll be fine no matter which one you choose.

 

[Nick JD]

Not trying to stir the pot (which is also good advice with this method) but how do you guys who do this stop air getting sucked back in to the essentially unsealed vessel as the wort cools and contracts? Sure, you're not talking about a lot of air on a small boil but it is less insignificant for full sized singles/doubles and either way you don't need there to be a heap of wild yeast/bugs to cause a problem. Yes, what I'm talking about requires a very definite set of circumstances but they are circumstances that are mostly out of our control, right?

I think the cooling kettle does indeed suck air in, but I think much of the sucking is done when the wort is in pasteurisation temperature levels. Any bacteria/yeasts getting sucked in will be entering a rather nasty place.

Also I think it's a bit of a false economy thinking we pitch our yeast into a sterile wort no matter what method we use unless we are in a hermetically sealed brewhouse with a hazmat suit on.

Thanks for keeping it civil, bum.

 

[Nick JD]

why all the recent animosity towards NickJD?

It's due to my unfeasibly good looks, and scintillating personality.

 

[bum]

I think the cooling kettle does indeed suck air in, but I think much of the sucking is done when the wort is in pasteurisation temperature levels. Any bacteria/yeasts getting sucked in will be entering a rather nasty place.

I had been of the mind that most of the shrinkage would occur at the lower end of the temp. But science was never entirely my thing at school, I guess. Even so, wouldn't you want to be sure of that rather than hoping for the best?

Also I think it's a bit of a false economy thinking we pitch our yeast into a sterile wort no matter what method we use unless we are in a hermetically sealed brewhouse with a hazmat suit on.

See, this is the ridiculous stuff I'm talking about Nick. Where did I suggest that my chosen method produces sterile wort? I didn't and wouldn't. My concern is suggesting novice brewers follow methods that could potentially invite problems to their beers if the methods are not explained.

Thanks for keeping it civil, bum.

I think you'll see that if you go back through the other thread none of my posts have been deleted or even edited. I was being civil and, unless I'm really pissed or joking, you'll find that I pretty much always am when on topic.

 

[steve78]

My 2c worth, I do a 22-23L AG boil and after its boiled I have the difficult issue with syphoning the wort out of the pot after the boil, so I just scoop out the hot wort with a small jug, then when half of its in the cube, just use a bucket to transfer the rest of the very hot wort into the cube till its topped to the brim and find this to be the easiest way, then u aint limited too much by the time when u have to pitch the yeast. This works for me. I am usually left with about 17L, and the remaining 2L I will either put into a 1 or 2L flask with a stopper. When it cools tho, the stopper can really wedge itself in there.

I have also no-chilled in the fermenter once and had no issues, but I pitched the yeast as soon as it go to pitching temp, also no chilled in a bigger cube and couldn't get all the air out and left it for 2 days, and the cube swelled.

I imagine as long as you keep the air out with gladwrap or whatever, it shouldn't be a problem, as long as you pitch as soon as practical. Only one way to find out tho mate, give it a crack and find out for yourself, if it works, stick with it

Best of luck,

 

[Nick JD]

Where did I suggest that my chosen method produces sterile wort?

You didn't. It's not about you. I don't actually know which way you cool your wort and to be quite honest, don't care.

Let it go mate.

 

[cdbrown]

Why don't you stick the pot into the laundry sink and cool it down with water from the old tap.

 

[Siborg]

Why don't you stick the pot into the laundry sink and cool it down with water from the old tap.

+1

If its a 20L pot, would be pretty easily done.

 

[the_yobbo]

Why don't you stick the pot into the laundry sink and cool it down with water from the old tap.

Yeah, its a very good question, if it was a question. Perhaps rhetorical.

Thanks also to Nick for his initial response which also suggested the same thing.

I agree that as the wort cools, it will contract and as the vessel isn't air tight, it will suck in natural air. As far as the rate of contraction, I assumed it was a linear rate. (Science in school was my forte but can't remember what I was taught about contraction rates. )
However, the volume of air sucked in would be the same for no-chill method and a chill method (in the bath). (I guess the difference is the time frame between possible contaminants being sucked in and pitched yeast taking control of the vessel.)

I did try the laundry sink last time, but I found it took too long to cool down aka I lacked patience. Where as a set and forget style system where I can call it a day after flame out seems ideal to me. I might dislike it after trying, spreading a brew day over two days. Time will tell.
Also, I assume that a no-chill method will allow more time for the break material to settle, therefore easier to pour off it.

Either way, think I've learnt that glad wrap is your friend to help seal the pot either way and HSA isn't as big and scary as it sounds.

I look forward to having another crack at the ol' Centenamillo Ale.

 

[hazard]

Not trying to stir the pot (which is also good advice with this method) but how do you guys who do this stop air getting sucked back in to the essentially unsealed vessel as the wort cools and contracts? Sure, you're not talking about a lot of air on a small boil but it is less insignificant for full sized singles/doubles and either way you don't need there to be a heap of wild yeast/bugs to cause a problem. Yes, what I'm talking about requires a very definite set of circumstances but they are circumstances that are mostly out of our control, right?

yeh, you may be right. But when i am using my immersion chiller, the lid is off the pot for about an hour after flaemeout and before before I whirlppol, then wait another hour or so (with the lid on) then rack to the fermenter and pitch. During the chilling stage, i reckon there is plenty of time to catch a bug if they are around.

 

[bum]

During the chilling stage, i reckon there is plenty of time to catch a bug if they are around.

Yeah, there is always the possibility but when you chill it is in this window of opportunity for the bugs for a shorter period and you're setting the yeast to work sooner. I guess it is just a matter of weighing up the possible risks versus the potential benefits.