No Chill Hopping

[rich_lamb]

Well it's certainly a complex formula anyway - although the reaction may proceed half as fast, in my case (which is probably the worst case) the wort went straight into the cube at flameout and would have cooled rather slowly. So the time above 80deg would have been "significant", but is unknown.

Also, that document references research showing significant losses of hop compounds to trub and spent hops. This seems to bear out in people's experience - leave out the hop matter and get rid of most of the problem.
I doubt you can say all of the alpha acids dissolve quickly - my impression was that they are not altogether soluble until they are isomerised...

For reference, the only hops I used were EKG; nothing high alpha.

 

[Damian44]

Would anyone care to take a stab at turning this hop schedule into a no-chill?

20.00 gm Green Bullet [13.40 %] (60 min) Hops 26.0 IBU
25.00 gm Green Bullet [13.50 %] (20 min) Hops 19.8 IBU
25.00 gm Green Bullet [13.50 %] (15 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Brewer said.... 15 mins is how long he waits till i start chilling

 

[Pumpy]

Great post but I No Chill but use a Hop Stoppa to prevent the hops and break going into the cubes very effective . Pumpy

 

[buttersd70]

My house ales get about .8g-1.5g of whirlpool hops (where the whirlpool is performed in the kettle with a big SS paddle), depending on what variety I've got at the time, so perhaps that is why this is not much of an issue for me. I can see how it would if you finished with Warrior (15%AA) or even Nelson Sauvin (12%) in large quantities, but not with 1g/l of 5%AA hops. There just isn't enough alpha acid there to make a difference, even if 30% of it isomerised.

I'd be interested in knowing the experiences of other brewers that hop with similar rates, particularly NC 'converts' that have made no (significant) changes to their hopping schedules between the two methods....personally, I hop my usual bitter with fuggle 0.75g/L 20min, and styrian 0.75g/L at flameout...both of which are in the 4-5% range.....and as I said, I get sfa difference on expected bitterness between chill/no chill....however, when I did a smurto GA NC, it was a lot more bitter than I expected (I expected it to be more bitter than my usual, obviously)....but I don't have a chill version to directly compare to (that I have done myself exactly the same)

 

[kram]

Would anyone care to take a stab at turning this hop schedule into a no-chill?

20.00 gm Green Bullet [13.40 %] (60 min) Hops 26.0 IBU
25.00 gm Green Bullet [13.50 %] (20 min) Hops 19.8 IBU
25.00 gm Green Bullet [13.50 %] (15 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Brewer said.... 15 mins is how long he waits till i start chilling

What are you making? Personally I would move the aroma hop-steep hops to dry hopping and consider modifying the time on the flavour addition.

 

[Damian44]

Sorry kram, here's the full recipe.....


Type: All Grain
Date: 24/06/2008
Batch Size: 25.00 L
Brewer: DrSmurto
Boil Size: 33.55 L Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 90 min Equipment: My Equipment
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
5.25 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.9 EBC) Grain 80.15 %
0.30 kg Barley, Flaked (3.3 EBC) Grain 4.58 %
0.25 kg Amber Malt (Bairds) (100.0 EBC) Grain 3.82 %
0.25 kg Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (817.6 EBC) Grain 3.82 %
0.25 kg Chocolate Malt (886.5 EBC) Grain 3.82 %
0.25 kg Roasted Barley (Thomas Fawcett) (1199.7 EBC) Grain 3.82 %
20.00 gm Green Bullet [13.40 %] (60 min) Hops 26.0 IBU
25.00 gm Green Bullet [13.50 %] (20 min) Hops 19.8 IBU
25.00 gm Green Bullet [13.50 %] (15 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Ringwood Ale (Wyeast Labs #1187) [Starter 2500 ml] Yeast-Ale



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.057 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.056 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.016 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.018 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.26 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 4.96 %
Bitterness: 45.9 IBU Calories: 534 cal/l
Est Color: 84.0 EBC Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Light Body Total Grain Weight: 6.55 kg
Sparge Water: 6.11 L Grain Temperature: 10.0 C
Sparge Temperature: 82.0 C TunTemperature: 20.0 C
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Light Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp
90 min Mash In Add 18.00 L of water at 74.5 C 66.0 C
10 min Mash Out Add 16.00 L of water at 93.8 C 78.0 C

 

[Fourstar]

I would have to agree allot with Thirsty.

I do nothing but NC and have found from my early beers (which were chilled) there is a distinct loss in hop aroma. I have tried endless ways to increase this but it is almost not possible. My next brew i will go to the efforts of pitching my aroma addition into the cube, @ no more than 70 deg and resealing.

Currently im drinking a CAP that had 20g at whirlpool (approx 10 mins after flameout) with very little hop aroma. Flavour and bitterness are awesome however. All of my beers seem to be lacking in the aroma department no matter how much hops i add at flameout. E.G. my SNPA clone had 40g of cascade at flamout with only a low hop aroma and high flavour/bitterness. I agree that all end of/post boil additons end up losing their aroma and contribute signifigant flavour and bitterness properties.

Will i change from No-chill anytime soon? Probably not. Convenience + time saving are on my side with no chill. If im opting to win competitions and brew to style with kick-ass aroma i might need to consider investing in a coil. At this stage im happy with the quality of beer im producing.


Only time will tell if i take the swan dive.



Edit: there was a BIG space in my post for some strange reason

 

[browndog]

I'd be interested in knowing the experiences of other brewers that hop with similar rates, particularly NC 'converts' that have made no (significant) changes to their hopping schedules between the two methods....personally, I hop my usual bitter with fuggle 0.75g/L 20min, and styrian 0.75g/L at flameout...both of which are in the 4-5% range.....and as I said, I get sfa difference on expected bitterness between chill/no chill....however, when I did a smurto GA NC, it was a lot more bitter than I expected (I expected it to be more bitter than my usual, obviously)....but I don't have a chill version to directly compare to (that I have done myself exactly the same)

I would have to agree Butters, I've not found my NC beers to be overly bitter, even when adding 50g of chinook or NS at flame out. The only thing that problem that I have found with NC is lack of aroma.

cheers

Browndog

 

[MHB]

I would have thought that putting the aroma hops into the cube would be analogous to using a hop back; the aroma cant escape before the beer cools down.

The only thing that comes to mind is that maybe the aroma compounds are broken down by the long time spent at high temperatures.

I would be very careful opening a cube at under 80 C as from there down there is very little pasteurisation going on and the risk of getting an infection will go through the roof.

The attached is something I was playing with a little while ago looking at the effect of PU temperature and time, effectively NC brewing.
I wanted to get a quote from my insurance company with specific reference to the risk of botulism if I started making Fresh Wort Kits, graphing it makes it obvious where you need to start being very careful.
As it happens my insurer decided not to put up my product liability cover big risk right.

View attachment 23334 EDIT See Sheet 2
The PDF is a pretty good explanation of Pasteurisation Units

View attachment 23335

MHB

 

[Thirsty Boy]

. . . Ok so I work in the brewing industry and Oh my god!!! I have participated in a few not chill's, its by far not a good idea according to all the studies I have done over the years, but that said its the lazy mans way to brew without a lot of gear and you can still make some decent brews using the no chill . . .

Ohhh - poke the no-chill brewers to make them angry then... I'm afraid I cant resist.

I will say simply this: Read this thread - which details a selection of no-chilled competition winners from this year's comps - and see if you can still justify referring to no-chill as "not a good idea" or a lazy man's way of brewing" - the truth of the matter would seem to be inconveniently contrary to your assertions.

I'm afraid that anyone with no-chill angst these days must only be able to maintain it by shutting their eyes, sticking their fingers in their ears and repeating the words lah lah lah I dont want to hear you, very loudly over and over again. BIAB might still have to prove itself with results - but no chill has won the argument, won the comps and walked away laughing with a bag full of trophies over its shoulder with which to bludgeon the remaining doubters.

Oh and it can save hops too...

so there

 

[reviled]

Ohhh - poke the no-chill brewers to make them angry then... I'm afraid I cant resist.

I will say simply this: Read this thread - which details a selection of no-chilled competition winners from this year's comps - and see if you can still justify referring to no-chill as "not a good idea" or a lazy man's way of brewing" - the truth of the matter would seem to be inconveniently contrary to your assertions.

I'm afraid that anyone with no-chill angst these days must only be able to maintain it by shutting their eyes, sticking their fingers in their ears and repeating the words lah lah lah I dont want to hear you, very loudly over and over again. BIAB might still have to prove itself with results - but no chill has won the argument, won the comps and walked away laughing with a bag full of trophies over its shoulder with which to bludgeon the remaining doubters.

Oh and it can save hops too...

so there

Completely agree that both BIAB and No-Chill are perfectly good practices and as far as im concerned neither need to prove themselves to me in any way because they have both allready done that!

I have been AG'ing for about 5-6 months, I recently went to the Auckland Brewers Guild end of year BBQ, which also had the SOBA (Society of Beer Advocates) there as well, and when I was told by more than a few people that they thought my beer was the best one there, and one that was no chilled in the kettle overnight, and BIAB'd, my mind was made up

Double so there haha

 

[RagingBull]

I do nothing but NC and have found from my early beers (which were chilled) there is a distinct loss in hop aroma. I have tried endless ways to increase this but it is almost not possible. My next brew i will go to the efforts of pitching my aroma addition into the cube, @ no more than 70 deg and resealing.

Can anybody vouch for this working well? Fourstar, did you end up doing this? I would be skeptical due to the chance of infection..

 

[seemax]

The two options as I see them...

1/ Cooling my wort at flameout with a copper coil chiller, whirlpooling, then draining into fermentor, then pitch yeast.
2/ Flameout, whirlpool, drain into cube, seal and straight into fridge.

In my case, option #2 actually cools the wort faster than #1 and saves a lot of water. It's more of a cube chilled (CC) method as it's not left at ambient. End result is the same though. Generally I don't use a hopsock, and leave most of the hops/trub behind when draining.

In regards to late additions, bitterness, etc I struggle to see the difference...both methods chill fast and reduce isomerisation. I haven't noticed any apparent difference in bitterness. In addition, aroma levels in my IPA's are acceptable (for me at least anyway). I do mostly dry hop though.

The benefit of #2 is I can brew when I feel like it and pitch the yeast when it suits me or whenever the starter is ready.

 

[Fourstar]

Can anybody vouch for this working well? Fourstar, did you end up doing this? I would be skeptical due to the chance of infection..

just a copy of the PM i sent to RagingBull incase anyone else was interested.

Hey mate, from 51 NC beers and actually my AG count too! (Crap, just realised my 50th beer was a Light, Ha!) i'd say 40% where reopened and hopped at 70deg~. Now days, to avoid having to reopen i just wait until the wort gets to 70deg in the kettle and dump the 'flameout/whirlpool' hops into the cube and rack ontop. Simple.

No cube infections yet.

I find it gives a BIG hop flavour and balanced late hop aroma. To be honest (not trying to sound like a wanker) i think it gives my beers a certain house flavour that i dont get in alot of other HB beers. Its something slightly unique thats for sure. Just watch out for super high alpha hops like galaxy using them in high %'s. Thats the only bad experience ive had. Turned out wayyyy to over dominated by galaxy unfortunatly.

I'd consider it to be a 5min addition (flavour wise) and 0/whirlpool addition aroma wise. Looking at most of my recipes i'd say most of them avg a 35g addition into the cube of a 23L batch.

Hope that helps for recipe formulation. Give it a shot in your next highly hopped APA, you wont be disappointed

Cheers! :icon_cheers:

 

[Ellaine]

I assume that late hops in an NC brew will contribute bitterness as though they had been boiled for 10-15 minutes.

Surendettement

If you let the actual hop matter go into the cube, then I would say calculate as though they were a 20-25 min addition.




Ellaine

 

[clean brewer]

I assume that late hops in an NC brew will contribute bitterness as though they had been boiled for 10-15 minutes.

Surendettement

If you let the actual hop matter go into the cube, then I would say calculate as though they were a 20-25 min addition.




Ellaine

WTF on the link?

And, no, I dont think so......

:icon_cheers: CB

 

[smiffypr]

I picked this journal article up a while back... haven't really gone through it in a lot of detail but it covers isomerisation and degradation reaction kinetics.

J. Agricultural and Food Chemistry, vol. 53, 2005,
Isomerization and Degradation Kinetics of Hop (Humulus lupulus) Acids in a Model Wort-Boiling System
Malowicki M.G., Shellhammer, T.H.

View attachment 23323

EDIT: Only seems to look at 90C as a minimum... a good rule of thumb for reaction rates for any reaction is "the reaction rate doubles for every increase of 10C".

Thank you for providing that. I have taken some data from that paper, and generated the attached spreadsheet.

"The graphs" shows the known data points (from the above pdf) in red, the rest is based on those, but that is reasonable as the known data points fit the formula perfectly.

"The calculation" allows you to put in the start and end temperatures and the elapsed time, and on the basis of a constant rate of cooling, will give you the equivalent boil time to put back into the IBU calculator.

For example, you add hops at "flame out", i.e. 100C, then cool for 60 minutes, and during this time the pot cools to 20C, put 100, 20 and 60 into the calculator and get an answer of 9.2, so treat that as a 9 minute boil in your IBU calculations, and add 9 minutes to all your other times in the IBU calculator too. If cooling takes place at different rates, e.g. standing for a while then using a cooling coil, do two calculations and add the results together.

The actual formula (in excel format) is
=Time*((0.000294*(POWER(1.08472257,Upper Temp))/(LN(1.084722579)))
-(0.000294*(POWER(1.08472257,Lower Temp))/(LN(1.084722579))))
/(Temp difference)

 

[MarkBastard]

I just did upper temp 85 minutes, lower temp 20 minutes, time 1440 minutes (24 hours)

I chose this because I rack from my boiler to my cube, and then add hops to the cube just before putting the lid on. I then allow to cool to about 20 degrees and that takes about 24 hours.

According to your spreadsheet that's like doing an 80 minute hop addition.

I'm not sure that's right, that seems way too high. Didn't someone here do a test by doing a brew that only used cube hopping?

 

[smiffypr]

I just did upper temp 85 minutes, lower temp 20 minutes, time 1440 minutes (24 hours)

I chose this because I rack from my boiler to my cube, and then add hops to the cube just before putting the lid on. I then allow to cool to about 20 degrees and that takes about 24 hours.

According to your spreadsheet that's like doing an 80 minute hop addition.

I'm not sure that's right, that seems way too high. Didn't someone here do a test by doing a brew that only used cube hopping?

You are right, the problem is that I had to assume the rate of cooling to be constant, but over your 24 hours the rate of cooling tails off to almost nothing.
From the data, the isomerization is negligible below 60C, so if you had the time at which it reaches 60C, you could use that, for example, if it took 120 mins to go from 85 to 60C, that gives an equiv boil time of 15 minutes.

The more time/temperature data points you had, the more accurate it would be, (making calculations for each period).

If you could supply a set of data (time vs temperature), it might be possible to "automate" the calculation, but the real rate of cooling will depend on so many variables, it might be difficult.

 

[MarkBastard]

Fair enough.